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Old 4 Nov 2001, 22:45 (Ref:169883)   #1
PoweredByHonda
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Does the Man make the Car? OR does the Car make the Man?

Here's a simple question?
Does the Man make the Car? OR does the Car make the Man?
I think the Man makes the car... No matter how good the car is if you don't have the determination then you can't win.. .Look at Barrichello right now at Ferrari, Albeit a number 2 status still has the best car and can't win, Same with HHF at williams in 97.
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Old 5 Nov 2001, 01:06 (Ref:169940)   #2
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Its a bit of both, I don't think anyone could be WDC in say a Minardi, no disrespect but you still need to be good enough to be WDC in a good car. The greats win in inferior cars.
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Old 5 Nov 2001, 01:44 (Ref:169955)   #3
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Oooohhhh good topic.

TGF has made the Ferrari. Literally!! He drives a funny style (you know, plenty of oversteer, nice and attacking like, say, JPM or Alesi) and thus Ferrari build a car FOR HIM. Sod the teammate (Rubinho ain't the same style, Eddie was closer).

But does the car make the driver?? Hmmm.... difficult to assess. May be in your early career it does.

But then again, no Minardi is going to win the WDC as you say so... Oh crumbs I dunno.
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Old 5 Nov 2001, 06:17 (Ref:170009)   #4
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Gt_R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGt_R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Its easy...of course its the people who made the cars...

why else do you think every team employ hundreds of people just to make sure 2 cars can run on the track every alternate weekends?
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Old 5 Nov 2001, 08:28 (Ref:170037)   #5
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Sometimes either answer would be correct


Score a point each way for Sir Jack Brabham
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Old 5 Nov 2001, 10:53 (Ref:170091)   #6
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Cars and Men

I think there is more truth in "The car makes the driver" than vice versa, but probably some in both. Both Jacques Villeneuve and Damon Hill won their championships in superior cars, and haven't done much at all without that advantage. TGF may be different, but unless we put Jacques into the Ferrari, we are not going to find out.
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Old 5 Nov 2001, 13:28 (Ref:170165)   #7
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Hugh Jarce should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHugh Jarce should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHugh Jarce should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Mmmmmm

A bad car makes a good driver worse.... name...

A good car makes a bad driver better.... name...

A bad car makes a bad driver lose his contract.... name...

A good car makes a good driver finish in the 'top three'.... name...

A good car makes a great driver World Champion.... name...


Add drivers names as you feel appropriate!!
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Old 5 Nov 2001, 13:38 (Ref:170168)   #8
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A bad driver makes a good car ... no he doesn’t, he doesn’t get a contract in the first place.
A bad driver drives a bad car. If he drives.
A good driver wins in a good car.
A good driver turns a bad car into a great car.




Anyway, a car do not grow in the trees, didn’t we forget the TEAM?






















A “bad driver” makes a good car look highly unreliable... name.... Sorry, couldn’t resist and it was a joke. Really!
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Old 5 Nov 2001, 15:16 (Ref:170201)   #9
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Gt_R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGt_R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Hmm..its really hard to get real accurate on this, as over the years we have seen examples of almost all.

We have seen THE MAN making the car seem better and more impressive than it actually deserve from drivers such as Senna, Schumacher and Alonso.

We have also seen THE CAR complementing a driver and make him seem even better than he actually might have been, ie Hill and DC and Eddie (don't misunderstand...they are good drivers..but their cars make them look even better)

We have also seen good drivers unable to do anything in a bad car like Oliver Panis in the pitiful BAR

Which ever you take it, i think it all goes down to see whether the advantage of one factor can outweigh the disadvantage of the other factor...~
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Old 5 Nov 2001, 15:18 (Ref:170202)   #10
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KC should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKC should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Certainly it takes a great driver in a great car to win in F1 these days. The days of a great driver carrying a mediocre car are over.

However, I do think a great car can make a great driver. So much of what these guys do is based on their confidence. Some drivers have it in abundance naturally, like Michael Schumacher and Juan Pablo Montoya. They were fearless and aggressive in their first starts. Others learn to be confident in the car and their abilities drastically improve over time, Ralf Schumacher and Mika Hakkinen. These two looked terrible when the first started but one has gone on to be two time champ and one has gone on to be a threat at nearly every track on the schedule.

So, to be WDC today it will require the technical expertise and reliability of Ferrari coupled with an uncompromising racer like Michael Schumacher. Only time will tell if Juan Pablo Montoya is going to be the man to do this along with Williams or if it will be another driver that is just now getting his confidence.
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Old 5 Nov 2001, 15:59 (Ref:170218)   #11
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Glen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGlen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGlen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
We can certainly see that qualities such as determination, confidence, perseverance and resolve are every bit as important as sheer racing speed. It's the relentless (well, almost) application of these qualities, allied to raw, natural speed that makes champions - and that's one thing that stands F1 above all other formulae.

Legislation to make the cars more equal would allow drivers that are "lesser", as far as resolve and depth of charater go, to win through - and that's why I prefer it the way that it is, for all its faults. In other words; it should be difficult to be the right guy in the right car at the right time.

Considering the amount of sheer hard work involved it's practically impossible to "luck" your way to WDC.
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Old 5 Nov 2001, 17:58 (Ref:170304)   #12
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Hugh Jarce should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHugh Jarce should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHugh Jarce should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally posted by Red
A bad driver makes a good car ... no he doesn’t, he doesn’t get a contract in the first place.
A bad driver drives a bad car. If he drives.
A good driver wins in a good car.
A good driver turns a bad car into a great car.

Anyway, a car do not grow in the trees, didn’t we forget the TEAM?

Hang on - now you're confusing me.

Are you saying a good team makes a bad driver seem good providing they produce a good car. But then again, can a good team produce a bad car, and if they did, would a good driver make the bad car look good and in so doing make the bad team look good.

And, where does that leave Minardi!

I'm going for a cup of tea!
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Old 5 Nov 2001, 18:03 (Ref:170305)   #13
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What a boring question
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Old 5 Nov 2001, 18:17 (Ref:170313)   #14
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Re: Cars and Men

Quote:
Originally posted by Maxmil
I think there is more truth in "The car makes the driver" than vice versa, but probably some in both. Both Jacques Villeneuve and Damon Hill won their championships in superior cars, and haven't done much at all without that advantage. TGF may be different, but unless we put Jacques into the Ferrari, we are not going to find out.
and thats exactly why damon hill nearly won the hungarian grand prix in 97

ooh and thats why he won the spa grand prix in 98 as well!

yeah i think u can make an exceptrion for damon.
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Old 5 Nov 2001, 19:03 (Ref:170340)   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hugh Jarce
Hang on - now you're confusing me.
How come?

No, I’m saying that a good team does not hire a bad driver. (Red’s “postulate” 1). Not for long and not often anyway.

Yes, a good team can produce a bad car, Ferrari for 5-8 years being a handy example. Yes, a good driver made some of those cars look good and eventually demonstrated my “Postulate” 4.

Watch out, this one is gonna be long : A good driver in a bad team (that makes a bad car) makes that bad car (built by the bad team) look good is still to be proved; I believe that Eddie or Jacques are trying that. ( What?! Did I say something wrong?! )

Unfortunately that leaves Minardi... err... that leaves Minardi (period). Sorry. Always short of cash.

PS: But Hill DIDN’T win the Hungarian GP did he? As for Spa ’98, you don’t want to count that... 2 Macs and 2 Ferraris out plus a Jordan “teamordered”... (can't remember where the Willys were) hmmm.

Last edited by Red; 5 Nov 2001 at 19:05.
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Old 5 Nov 2001, 19:21 (Ref:170346)   #16
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Originally posted by Red
PS: But Hill DIDN’T win the Hungarian GP did he?...
hate to make a fool of you, but i didnt...i said "nearly"
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Old 5 Nov 2001, 19:27 (Ref:170351)   #17
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Yes you did indeed. And the topic was: "(originally posted my Maxmil) and haven't done much at all without that advantage". You're right, a podium for an Arrows cannot be qualified as "nothing" but the point stands. That Arrows didn't make it to the finish, in one piece, no matter the driver.
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Old 5 Nov 2001, 19:56 (Ref:170368)   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Red
Yes you did indeed. And the topic was: "(originally posted my Maxmil) and haven't done much at all without that advantage". You're right, a podium for an Arrows cannot be qualified as "nothing" but the point stands. That Arrows didn't make it to the finish, in one piece, no matter the driver.
oh theres no contest, both have to be good to even get a sniff of victory.

so...do you agree that damon hill was a great driver? (say yes say yes say yes say yes say yes say yes say yes say yes)
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Old 5 Nov 2001, 20:12 (Ref:170377)   #19
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Damon = useless juan
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Old 5 Nov 2001, 20:39 (Ref:170389)   #20
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Old 6 Nov 2001, 00:18 (Ref:170549)   #21
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damon = useless
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Old 6 Nov 2001, 00:19 (Ref:170550)   #22
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How many cars finished Spa 98?
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Old 6 Nov 2001, 07:47 (Ref:170618)   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Number Juan
so...do you agree that damon hill was a great driver?
Yes, that reeeeaaaaally is a tricky question! What I said was “no matter the driver” Whoever makes it to Formula 1 (you guessed! Marques too!) is an autocensoring good driver in my book. All of them are great, and I respect them.

Paulzinho: 8 cars, 5 of them in the same lap. 2 Jordans, 1 Sauber, 1 Williams, 1 Arrows, 1 Prost, 1 Mac and 1 Minardi. (5 cars didn’t make the second start)






























PS: ... some of them are greater though...
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