How much natural talent did Mansell and Damon Hill really have?

[Yoong Montoya]

I think the saying that they worked at their driving rather than having natural ability is a bit of a myth. Judging by Mansell's performance in Silverstone 1988 and Damon Hill's in Suzuka 1994, I would say that they had a fair bit of natural talent. After all, Mansell would have needed some natural talent to finish 2nd in a backmarker car in atrocious conditions in Silverstone 1988. And Damon Hill would also have needed some natural talent to beat Michael Schumacher in similarly atrocious conditons in Suzuka 1994.

Then again, you can have all the natural talent in the world, but you need to apply it correctly to be successful. Just ask Jean Alesi.

[Damon]

On their day they showed signs of real genious. The trouble was that neither of them could really apply it often enough.

[Sato san]

they were totally different animals.......

Mansell .............. total utter racer !......always went for th overtaking move , pulled off many in supreme style , was up for it with anyone and everyone .

Hill........very fast capable driver , but one who needed to work harder on the agression side ........

[Damon]

It was Nige that got me hooked on F1 so I guess he can't be that bad! I'm just glad I chose the Mexico GP 1990 for my first taste of F1.

[NiceGuyEddie]

I wouldn't jump to any conclusions, which you are doing when you characterize drivers by pointing out only one race.

Overall I would say Mansell's lack of sheer talent, the kind of talent that makes you recognize it at first site, was compensated by his total and utter devotion. It made him into the fighter that on occassion beat the talented guys who couldn't be bothered that much. That is sometimes the trouble with those who can rely solely on talent. Only Senna springs to mind as a driver who combined extreme amounts of talent with extreme amounts of devotion and fighting spirit. Well, maybe M. Schumacher as well.

Hill was extremly capable behind the wheel of a Formula 1-car. Let there be no doubt about that. On speed he could be measured with the best of them. I'm not saying he would always come out the winner, but he would give em a run for their money. And in terms of setting up a car, he could get the job done. His weakness lay in on-track duelling. He simply wasn't up to it.

Between the two, I would say in the end Damon was the better driver. But then again. I doubt that a driver of Damons style and character would be holding up in the era in which Mansell shined, whereas Mansell did show well in the 1994 Williams.

[Damon]

I agree it's a tight call because they both have such different talents. Hill is quite possibly the best development driver ever. As you say he could really mix it with the best on his day as Suzuka '94 and Hungary '97 demonstrated.

I'de have to disagree that Mansell had no talent though. He had plenty of talent but it was often stifled by the greater ability of those around him at the time. Much like Moss, how can a driver expect to shine through with the likes of Senna and Prost around them?

[Mr V]

I'd say that Nigel had total natural talent, a "balls to the wall" driver, who on his day was the most exciting driver out there, and that included when Senna was out there. (not saying he was as good).

Damon, didn't have as much natural talent as say, Nigel or Michael, he had to work at it abit more, but proved that he could get the job done by winning a WDC and a race in a Jordan. (yes i know he only won because of Michaels accident with DC, but he was the only guy on the day to get anywhere Michaels sort of level)

[NiceGuyEddie]

Much like Moss, how can a driver expect to shine through with the likes of Senna and Prost around them?

Sure, but when we determine wheter or not a driver is truly talented, its only fair to compare him to the best. Im not going to compare Mansell with Pierluigi Martini, Olivier Grouillard and Bertrand Gachot to go on concluding he was extremly talented.

Sure, Mansell provided us with much needed entertainment, but that wasn't the question. His style gained him to audience' vote, but is more a testament to his dedication than to his talent.

Prost was most often boring, both on and off track, but so much more talented than Mansell ever was. It's just tempting to call those who entertain us talented.

Having said that, of course Mansell was blessed with heaps of talent. He was a very very good driver. It's just that in his days there were a couple of drivers who were better.

How would Mansell compare to Coulhard?
How would Coulthard compare to Damon Hill (season 1994 might give us a hint of an answer)?

[Spudgun]

Mansell used to grab the car by the scruff of the neck and drive.

He could pull off passes that seemed impossible. I especially enjoyed watching the occassions when he outdrove Piquet as the 'number two' driver. Great stuff!

Damon was different. He wasn't balls out, but knew how do develop a car. Also, in qualifying you could watch him in car and think he was driving slow but it turned out to be the pole lap. Such was his very smooth driving. In Hungary 1997 driving the arrows he proved he could drive. It's just a shame he found it difficult to adapt to grooved tyres.

You may have the best car and win the championship, but you still need to be able to drive it.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by NiceGuyEddie
Sure, Mansell provided us with much needed entertainment, but that wasn't the question. His style gained him to audience' vote, but is more a testament to his dedication than to his talent.

I think the fact that Mansell finished runner up in the WDC 3 times (to Senna and Prost) and that includes, breaking his back in an accident and having a major blow out that wrecked his chances bears testiment to his ability.

[NiceGuyEddie]

Originally posted by mr v
...and a race in a Jordan. (yes i know he only won because of Michaels accident with DC, but he was the only guy on the day to get anywhere Michaels sort of level)

What do you mean 'sort of level'? Not to take anything away from Damon, but Michael was in a class of its own that day. Probably on course for his best race ever. No one was able to touch him. He was actually lapping Coulthard when it all went wrong (and Spa constitutes long laps). Besides that, not only Micheals DNF helped Damon win that race. There were a few more DNF's that day. DNF's by drivers who had a far better shot at winning than Damon. Even Ralf Schumacher needed to be held back by a teamorder (but to be fair, if there weren't teamorders, Damon wouldn't have the chance of taking it easy in autrocious conditions. So there is no telling who'd actually take the finishline first).

[NiceGuyEddie]

Originally posted by mr v
I think the fact that Mansell finished runner up in the WDC 3 times (to Senna and Prost) and that includes, breaking his back in an accident and having a major blow out that wrecked his chances bears testiment to his ability.

His ability is out of question. He was very good driver. I never liked his theatrical antics (my mom was a big fan though... often left the room because she couldn't bare watching him putting in fastest lap after fastest lap when he was already miles ahead of the rest, afraid he would throw it all away), but he truly gained my respect. Especially when he drove the 641/2 Ferrari back in 1990 and led Williams on WC-course during the second half of 1991 and of course 1992.

I've got a tape of clippings of footage from all his F1 wins. He is something special and truly missed.

So no argument here.

[Mr V]

What i meant by "sort of level" was that Michael had the best car on the day (in comparison to DC atleast, Mika we'll never know about) and Damon managed to keep a much faster Ferrari behind him..........IN A JORDAN, obviously, once Michael was past, he was off and running, posting laps 2 seconds faster than Damon, but Damon was posting laps 2 seconds faster than everyone else, that included a McLaren and the second Ferrari, thats what i meant by "sort of level"

As an aside, i chose that line "Michaels sort of level", as oppossed to "Michaels level" very carefully as i knew that you TGF fans would be jumping down my throat about it. You need to stop being so insecure about such statements

[NiceGuyEddie]

Originally posted by mr v

As an aside, i chose that line "Michaels sort of level", as oppossed to "Michaels level" very carefully as i knew that you TGF fans would be jumping down my throat about it. You need to stop being so insecure about such statements

Just checking

[expert]

Strange nobody is comparing the backgrounds of Damon and Nigel with the backgrounds of Schuey and the Great Ayrton Senna.

Damon drove his first racecar (f.ford) when he was already 24 years old, and it took him almost 10 years to get to F1 after that, mostly due to lack of money (and that for the son of a double F1 champion, albeit a dead one). Nigel had to sell his house to get a handful of uncompetitive F3-drives in his days... Hardly ideal, wouldn't you agree, when you consider that Schumacher and Senna did their first laps in karting at the tender age of 4-5 years old and neither of them had to worry about getting up the junior ladder: Senna because of his God-given talent and dedication and a very rich family, Schuey because of his manager Willi.

I honestly think that if Damon & Nigel were born in respectively Kerpen and Sao Paolo and Schuey and Ayrton were born in poor English families... we'd never would've heard about Schuey, Damon and Nige would've been considered as is alain prost today, and Ayrton Senna... well, he's Ayrton Senna!

[NiceGuyEddie]

I honestly think that if Damon & Nigel were born in respectively Kerpen and Sao Paolo and Schuey and Ayrton were born in poor English families... we'd never would've heard about Schuey, Damon and Nige would've been considered as is alain prost today, and Ayrton Senna... well, he's Ayrton Senna!

Thats an assumption you can never back up. Be that as it may, both Mansell/Hill and Senna/Schumacher had the chance to do their thing in the best F1car a season had to offer. So in the end quite equal. The road to get there becomes irrelevant when at the end they are all having a shot in the very best car. And so they have. Senna/Schumacher obviously came out on top.

[expert]

NiceGuyEddie,

What do you mean I can't back it up? Sure I can, don't tell me it's coincidence then that Raikkonen, Button, Davidson, Alonso... -who were superstars in karts- made it to the top in just 2 or 3 seasons whereas others like McNish, Firman, De La Rosa, Wilson needed a lot more time... and don't expect one of them to be DWC one day.

[NiceGuyEddie]

You can't back up because there is no telling where Senna would end up if he came from the background of Nigel Mansell or vice versa.

And like I said, both of them were given the control of F1cars which were the best in their seasons (Williams FW14B and McLaren MP4/5) and in those cockpits, it doesnt matter where you had to came from before you got there. In those cockpits you go about your business. And Senna simply was better at it than Mansell.

Money and knowing the right people me make it easier to get there, but it doesn't make it any easier in the cockpit. It doesn't buy you talent mind you.

[f1manoz]

Mansell has plenty of natural talent, but backed that up with courage, determination and devotion, which made him into the fearsom driver that he was.

The only reason people think he didn't have talent was because he was beside Senna and Prost for most of his career.

[Jonny Apex]

I was never a Mansell fan. I'd been a huge fan of Senna the first day I ever saw him race - in a FF1600 at Mallory Park in 1981. I was happy to cheer Senna at British Grands Prix while the rest roared on 'Our Nige'. Copse, lap one, 1990, went wonderfully quiet ...

Now, when I look back with hindsight, I did enjoy watching Mansell. He was a fantastic racer, but only when the car was running right. And that was a difference. Another was that after races Senna spoke with great intelligence and intellect, whereas Mansell ... turned me right off.

However, to get anywhere near a Senna, a Prost, a Rosberg or a Piquet your physical and mental make-up had to be of the right stuff. All were awesome, with Senna, for me, top of the pile and by quite some way. He just seemed to lack that final, essential something. To say he lost the world title in '86 because of a blow-out ... I don't agree with that. Every race counts towards the title, not just the last one. While it was tragic that such events should conspire against him in the final round, imagine if, six months earlier, he'd not tried winning Brazil on the opening lap, or, later, remembered to select first gear on the grid in Mexico ...

On saying that, as much as I disliked Mansell at the time, I look back and think 'cheeky bugger' for daring to brave it out with Senna down the pit straight at Barcelona!

Damon Hill, as a racer, does not compare to any of them. He had his day at Suzuka, 1994, sure, but that's the only race people defending him can find to use as their example. He should have thrashed Schumacher in '95, the Williams far superior to the Benetton in the first half the year, but he failed to capitalise. He just did not have that killer instinct a natural born winner has.

Bear this in mind. Brazil 1994: Senna spins out while chasing Schumacher for the lead, at the time a lap up on Williams team-mate Hill ...

One thing I do know: the Schuey and Montoya fans, although they hate each other's respective drivers now, will look back one day and realise just what they are missing.

[Spudgun]

The reason Mansell braved it outagaint Senna in Barcelona was that never in his career did Mansell let Senna intimidate him. It was great!

Those times are a byegone era. If only something like that would happen now.

That moment will live with me forever.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by expert
and it took him almost 10 years to get to F1 after that, mostly due to lack of money (and that for the son of a double F1 champion, albeit a dead one).

Wasn't that because

a) the Hill family was sued by the families of the dead personel in Grahams plane. (that crashed)

and

b) Damon prefered motorbikes, spent alot of his younger years racing them and was quite successful.

[fousto]

Well I think that Damon was immensely talented but lacked "Balls of Steel"
Nigel has all the balls anyone would ever require. I think their driving reflected this!
I saw Nigel put a huge hole in a concrete wall in Phoenix and shrug it off. Damon would have quit racing!!

[Mr V]

Originally posted by fousto
Damon would have quit racing!!

Damon had his fair share of accidents, upside down at Hungary 1994 springs to mind, didn't stop him.

As for Nigel shrugging it off.....Never, i'm a big Nigel fan, but he would never have shrugged it off, he would have played on it, and as it happens, he had to have major back surgury after that accident.

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by Damon
On their day they showed signs of real genious. The trouble was that neither of them could really apply it often enough.

Hell no!! they were very ordinary. I mean if they had any talent at all, they might have won a few races, and if they had real talent, I mean real talent, they would have won a WDC. I don't understand what everyone is raving about