Roborace 2016-17

Deleted · 17 Dec 2015, 15:12 (Ref:3598376)

We've had some discussion about this on the Formula E thread (and General Sportscar Chat thread over at sportscar section) but we need a proper place to discuss this, and not get it all mixed and lost with other stuff.

So as we know, there will be a robotic support series for FE next year, 2016-2017 period. Hour long races with driverless spec electric cars (capable of 300km/h speeds apparently), but the AIs will be programmed by the participating teams itself so it will not be a predictable series controlled WWE circus. The AIs will be independent from each other.

I know a lot of people will turn their backs to this (just as I do for Formula E

) and call it the most boring thing in existence, and yes it is a bit touchy subject but for me this is immensely exciting prospect we're facing here. The future of industry and engineering. I don't particularly care for drivers anyhow. Now, this Roborace thingy itself with spec cars and no manufacturers and road car relevance, nor whacko fantasy tracks (that there could be now without the driver safety sidde) means that the concept is still faaaaaaaaaar away from what I desire it to be, but as initial starting point of possibly something more substantial, it sounds cool. Perhaps later we will get to proper stuff.

To add some new substance to this post so that it wouldn't be entirely rehash from what's been said before, here are some recent quotes from "hu-mans"...

... whom are definitely not participating

https://sports.vice.com/ca/article/a...e-humans-think

Anyway there are no real details of anything substantial regarding this thing and it's about year away in any case, so let's not quite jump to conclusions yet.

Deleted · 17 Dec 2015, 19:08 (Ref:3598439)

"Why Roborace will be the dullest race series ever"
http://www.newslocker.com/en-uk/prof...ies-ever/view/

The writer spends almost the entire race moaning about Formula E while only briefly even mentioning this series. What was the answer to his question again? That FE is dull? Yeah I guess, but Roborace mr?

Anyway, regarding the di Grassi stuff... even if it's a joke(??). The over generalization of man held jobs being replaced by machines. Well, it is true that many tasks are being automated, but why is it such a bad thing? Not only does automation equal efficiency, but it also needs to be realized that the jobs "robots are taking over" are mostly mundane & industrial tasks. Tasks cavemen would've never even dreamed of having to do, you know cleaning, resource processing, maintenance, lifting, construction, running things, formalities, whatever. But professions move over. I look at my country now, 50-60 years ago most of the economy was still agricultural, and now everything is dominated by the service industry. People move over to other areas.

Jobs are still gonna exist, but the landscape changes. Economic climates change. Technology changes. Ideologies change. World changes. Robots and AI aren't the enemy.

Roninho · 17 Dec 2015, 20:16 (Ref:3598449)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiana

"Why Roborace will be the dullest race series ever"
http://www.newslocker.com/en-uk/prof...ies-ever/view/

The writer spends almost the entire race moaning about Formula E while only briefly even mentioning this series. What was the answer to his question again? That FE is dull? Yeah I guess, but Roborace mr?

Anyway, regarding the di Grassi stuff... even if it's a joke(??). The over generalization of man held jobs being replaced by machines. Well, it is true that many tasks are being automated, but why is it such a bad thing? Not only does automation equal efficiency, but it also needs to be realized that the jobs "robots are taking over" are mostly mundane & industrial tasks. Tasks cavemen would've never even dreamed of having to do, you know cleaning, resource processing, maintenance, lifting, construction, running things, formalities, whatever. But professions move over. I look at my country now, 50-60 years ago most of the economy was still agricultural, and now everything is dominated by the service industry. People move over to other areas.

Jobs are still gonna exist, but the landscape changes. Economic climates change. Technology changes. Ideologies change. World changes. Robots and AI aren't the enemy.

Imo the organiser is doing one thing very well: Looking at where the future of cars ''might'' be, and create a serie that offers potential for R&D in that regard (or offers the ''illusion'' of r&d). And then it is neatly combined with a ''green/environmental'' sauce.

Imo that is the way to get manufacturer support, governmental support and Hitech companies support. I cannot see Formula E now making money, but i could see it in a few years.

This roborace just perfectly fits that. I don't know if in the future we will be passengers in our own AI driven cars, but it certainly could be, so yeah i think it fits in nicely next to electric racing cars.

As a motorsport fan i don't dislike it, i'm just not interested in it. I'm not interested in Formule E (yet) because imo it's just not fast, exciting and over the top enough for me.

As for roborace, i don't think i will ever watch it as a fan. I think it will be the same as watching Iracing, and as unpleasant as it sounds i miss the element of danger in that. I see someone crashing and i really don't care for it.

Deleted · 17 Dec 2015, 20:43 (Ref:3598454)

Of course, as a series without drivers I'm under no impression that this could ever become big... in any capacity. Even if it had the most exciting racing ever and had T-800 onboard and was uber environmentally sexy and raced on the bottom of ocean. F1 and NASCAR are huge for one reason and one alone (well besides the F1-"glamour/history" and NASCAR-crashes): immense driver focus, making them super celebrities. Personalities are what get peoples attentions, yeah you may have substantial Tifosi fan bases for Ferrari and loads for McLaren, but the drivers are the real catch.

However, if one aims at specific target audience, I think this could hit a spot. After all, sportscar racing is popular (well in some areas at least) with manufacturers, teams and models taking large amounts of spotlight away from the drivers. If the focus is put on cars itself, I think the focus can also be put on AI. Such would just have to be marketed correctly for such audience.

Now, I admit that spec cars going against themselves even with the most diversible AIs could not hold the keys to success for too long, you know since you cannot really identify with the factors at play (though there are teams, people running them, and programmers). However if at some point you get manufacturers starting to prepare cars for their robots, it gets interesting. GM AI vs Ford AI? Corvette Robot vs Ford GT Robot? If one crashes out, the manufacturer you also may support is out. Brand relevance is important. And since we are not only dealing with cars here, maybe computer industry companies may jump in also. IT industry on top of robotic industry on top of automotive industry.

The fantasy track element could be interesting, these things could quite literally race on mountain edges, or closed public country roads, or even ice roads? Without the driver safety to be taken into account nearly everything is possible (as long as you quarantee spectator/outsider safety). Even unlimited speeds, 400-500kph. No Mulsanne chicanes here.

Of course, all of this is highly theoretical, but I think the future possibilities are more substantial than one might think at the start. But it may not get going if this Roborace ends up being a flop and/or they bring it down with gimmicky crap. It could be like the first year for chess computers then... awkward... but hopefully promising

---

Serious question though: with them being electric, and racing for one hour, do we need multiple mid race battery changes? IDK

Roninho · 17 Dec 2015, 22:43 (Ref:3598472)

I wonder if after a while the racing simply doesnt get really boring when the AI is dialed in pretty good?

Deleted · 18 Dec 2015, 00:02 (Ref:3598486)

The world is full of great programmers.

And then those ones even Minardi quality control wouldn't let pass

Initially, they'll of course have to iron out some bugs as big collective group, the first event could be a mess otherwise. Well it'll probably be anyway, but you know.

Of course, I'm speaking of 'them', the teams, even though no one has actually sign up yet

NaBUru38 · 18 Dec 2015, 19:05 (Ref:3598644)

Hey, Minardi has helped quite a few top drivers:

1986-1987: Alessandro Nannini
1992-1993: Christian Fittipaldi
1994: Michele Alboreto
1995-1996: Pedro Lamy
1996: Giancarlo Fisichella
1999-2000: Marc Gené
2001: Fernando Alonso
2002: Mark Webber
2003: Justin Wilson
2004: Gianmaria Bruni

Deleted · 19 Dec 2015, 08:53 (Ref:3598725)

It was a figurative example

NaBUru38 · 21 Dec 2015, 00:47 (Ref:3599040)

I know. When I talk to my father about a bad basketball or rugby team, I always say Minardi

AoB Special Stage · 21 Dec 2015, 02:54 (Ref:3599059)

Apparently people who think AI controlled cars will stay in a civilized train have never seen Stock Car Extreme gameplay.

Deleted · 21 Dec 2015, 12:46 (Ref:3599160)

Looks like the start has been delayed until 2017 ("towards the end of third season") rather than all of FE calendar as initially cited
http://www.formulaezone.com/?p=4588

Mekola · 26 Dec 2015, 20:19 (Ref:3600297)

I offered Nextev TCR (Campos) my pen-name of fictional driver, for one of their RoboRace cars.

Deleted · 26 Jan 2016, 20:10 (Ref:3608241)

Interesting poll positioning, two moderately positive, one dismissive and finally extremely negative option...

Meanwhile, Williams(-Jaguar) has expressed having no interest in this series.

But most importantly now, we could have public designs next month, or March
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/122591

Deleted · 20 Feb 2016, 19:17 (Ref:3616319)

Are we gonna get neon light aesthetics?

http://www.theverge.com/2016/2/18/11...les-autonomous

Deleted · 31 Mar 2016, 08:21 (Ref:3628952)

This is the best they could come up with? Ehh
http://www.wired.co.uk//2016-03/30/r...-car-formula-e

Deleted · 31 Mar 2016, 18:10 (Ref:3629089)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oBnWsVhJms

pirenzo · 31 Mar 2016, 18:29 (Ref:3629093)

I think it looks great, very futuristic.

Deleted · 31 Mar 2016, 18:44 (Ref:3629098)

I mean it's okay I guess, but they literally could've designed any shapes possible without the driver restrictions.

olev · 31 Mar 2016, 21:40 (Ref:3629140)

After watching this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ol3g7i64RAI

I think it's a very interesting technical exercise... probably soulless for the typical motorsport enthusiast, and I fully understand that.

Funny how the comentator stress how perfect the line taken by the car is, but it is in fact far from perfect. The track usage is poor, totally avoiding any kerb. This makes me think the technology behind is at a very early stage. They're running a squence of actions (I guess GPS controlled) rather than having an AI aware of the environment.

I suppose running the kerbs induces instability on the car that probably the algorythm is not fast enough to detect and to deal with like a human will do. For the same reason, they drive reasonably far from the track limits, I assume, acommodating for any precision errors the positioning system might have..

Altogether, I see it as a very attractive engineering excercise. And probably very entertaining in the early stages when the not so refined algorythms may give room for some crazy stuff. But once the thing start to gett polished, it can get really boring.

Until then, it can be interesting, so bring it on!

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