The future of Grand Am?

[Canada ALMS fan]

After a small grid for Daytona and a small entry list so far for Miami, it appears NASCAR may no longer be propping up their sportscar series, or can it still all be blamed on the economy? Add to that the rumours of Krohn and Gainsco going away courtesy of our furry friend the future is looking rather bleak from this outsiders point of view. Can anyone shed any more light? I would assume (perhaps incorrectly) that not all the entries are on the list for Miami, but 19 cars... ouch!
Subtract perhaps Gainsco and Krohn

Possibly add:
The RX8's from Sahlens and Dempsey?
TRG cars?
Tony Dowe's Ferrari(s)
LG's Vettes

Perhaps the ALMS Challenge classes are hurting the GA grid too?

[HORNDAWG]

I would say the economy is hurting GA and NASCAR, like everyone! Which might mean that NASCAR will focus more directly on their main product. Gainsco and Krohn (if) leaving do not help the matter, but I do not see GA dying unless NASCAR decides to abandon it.

Once again, the LMPC class in the ALMS is not helping GA, but it is not the proverbial straw either.







L.P.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

After a small grid for Daytona and a small entry list so far for Miami, it appears NASCAR may no longer be propping up their sportscar series, or can it still all be blamed on the economy? Add to that the rumours of Krohn and Gainsco going away courtesy of our furry friend the future is looking rather bleak from this outsiders point of view. Can anyone shed any more light? I would assume (perhaps incorrectly) that not all the entries are on the list for Miami, but 19 cars... ouch!
Subtract perhaps Gainsco and Krohn

Possibly add:
The RX8's from Sahlens and Dempsey?
TRG cars?
Tony Dowe's Ferrari(s)
LG's Vettes

Perhaps the ALMS Challenge classes are hurting the GA grid too?

Grand Am always posts their entrylists as a work in progress and the Miami entry list is far from being complete:
Add at least:
4-5 DPs (SunTrust, Brumos, Action Express, Level 5, and perhaps Beyer)
10 GT cars (5 Mazdas for Racer's Edge, Dempsey, Sahlen's, 2 or more Porsches from TRG, the PR1 BMW, the MCM GTO and one LG Vette and perhaps also another from Whelen).
That's 33 to 35 cars overall and no substantial change to where they were last year.

Now, if you wanna talk about Grand Am's future, how about their possible hook-up with DTM or the possibility of the new Peugeot LMP-engine showing up at Daytona next year, as twittered by Racecar Engineering!?

[chocmonster7]

Gainsco & Krohn are both on the Miami list now. As SpeedKing says the entry lists are never final until the start of the meeting and there is a long time yet before the next race.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Now, if you wanna talk about Grand Am's future, how about their possible hook-up with DTM or the possibility of the new Peugeot LMP-engine showing up at Daytona next year, as twittered by Racecar Engineering!?

that sounds more interesting than doom and gloom rumors, but alas, it is the GA and can only be so interesting. DTM fans would be generally bored with the DPs and unsure what a Pug motor would actually do for the series itself.

i'd to see some sort of merger by the two American Road Racing Series...and by merger, i mean the GA selling rights to there cars and races/tracks to the ALMS, with the ALMS subsequently dumping or changing the DP. obviously, the ALMS don't have the money, and perhaps the desire to do so.

i still wish there could be a "Thunder Saloon" or "Grand Touring on Steroids" series in the states. seems that the two big sportscar series could come up with something between them.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

i still wish there could be a "Thunder Saloon" or "Grand Touring on Steroids" series in the states. seems that the two big sportscar series could come up with something between them.

Trans Am?

[johntt]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

i'd to see some sort of merger by the two American Road Racing Series...and by merger, i mean the GA selling rights to there cars and races/tracks to the ALMS, with the ALMS subsequently dumping or changing the DP. obviously, the ALMS don't have the money, and perhaps the desire to do so.

The Oreca LMPC-10 is cheaper and faster than a DP. Dumping the DPs is a no-brainer.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Trans Am?

that would work if i heard anything besides "the TA is dead and will remain that way". I supported the late TA the only i could; show up to a race. i was kinda thinking something similar to the Japanese Super GT....don't know what would work, but BIG LOAD and FAST is what i want; too much to ask for?

DPs were a good idea in theory but executed with complete lack thought. typical nascar.

[MrSebring]

You can talk Grand-Am car counts all you want. The fact is Grand-Am has virtually no fan base. After Daytona, which had disappointing attendance again this year (despite the annual "record crowd" nonsense press release by NASCAR), most races are very poorly attended. NASCAR will not continue to throw money at this series over the long-term. They are suffering serious revenue drops with their stock car series, and unless things change dramatically, don't think Grand-Am is a sure thing over the long-term. Then again, ALMS isn't a sure thing either. Or IRL.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

I do not see GA dying unless NASCAR decides to abandon it.

Exactly. ALMS can only wait, pray... and do their part right.

Originally Posted by johntt

The Oreca LMPC-10 is cheaper and faster than a DP. Dumping the DPs is a no-brainer.

It would be perfect if American coachbuilders were allowed to develop LMPC-alikes.

Originally Posted by Speed-King

how about their possible hook-up with DTM [...] !?

I answered that here.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

It would be perfect if American coachbuilders were allowed to develop LMPC-alikes.

Presently, while the dominant Riley is built by an 'American coachbuilder', the only two remaining legit competitors for that car are built by Dallara (Italy) and Lola (UK), so that argument doesn't really fly.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

i still wish there could be a "Thunder Saloon" or "Grand Touring on Steroids" series in the states. seems that the two big sportscar series could come up with something between them.

I have always wondered if Grand Am had become a rebirth of the silhouette cars of the the 70's, the batmobile Corvettes, the AAGT type Monza and Mustang, and the 80's cars like the Roush entered Mustangs---a rebirth of GTO along with the GTU cars like Porsche, Mazda----wings, noise, exhaust flames, what would have happened. The GTO cars with wild looks and big acceleration, the GTU's a sort of efficient high performing package, all a semi-controlled run-what-you-brung show. In a way, visually like Japanese GT.

There is an angle that would appeal in a way to the tuner crowd, the garage builders, and also tie in somewhat with Nascar mania of the look being sort of like what is in someone's driveway, but with big performance and noise and flames.

They wouldn't then have sort of dumb and dumpy looking protos that seem to have no real visual appeal to anyone. You would probably have some whacky variety of different makes and models, with even the same model looking different car-to-car.

You could go to a race and have that sense of surprise and wonder when something boomed past for the first time--wow, what the heck is that? That is not within the realm of possibilty for Grand Am now, or for years to come except maybe in GT. (Oh, and I realize also not really possible for ALMS either).

It would be a product differentiated from what ALMS has. It would pull nostalgia levers for old-time fans, and would potentially be interesting for a drop in casual fan.

Trans Am on steriods. Bring back IMSA GTO/GTU.

Crazy Robert... who won't sit by the phone waiting for Grand Am to call and buy my idea.

[Speed-King]

With those DTM rumors (from a very credible source, one might add) this might not be as unrealistic as it sounds on the first glance...

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by skycafe

Trans Am on steriods. Bring back IMSA GTO/GTU.

you and i are on the complete same page, but call it the GTOS; GrandTouring on Steroids.

as you stated, you'd potentially have appeal from everywhere...the problem may be production cars that could be "Dr. Frankensteined" into homologation .

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by cmk

Presently, while the dominant Riley is built by an 'American coachbuilder', the only two remaining legit competitors for that car are built by Dallara (Italy) and Lola (UK), so that argument doesn't really fly.

SCCA Trans-Am, Nascar East / West, IMSA Prototype Lites, Formula D, IndyCar 2012... there are more American coachbuilders and tuning companies than just Riley.

[thebear]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

or the possibility of the new Peugeot LMP-engine showing up at Daytona next year, as twittered by Racecar Engineering!?

That would be quite a feat as I don't think there are provisions in the G-A rulebook (at present) for diesel motors. G-A homologation could be a problem. .

[HJJ]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

It would be perfect if American coachbuilders were allowed to develop LMPC-alikes.

If the LMPC's are built in the States, they will be built by EMT.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by HJJ

If the LMPC's are built in the States, they will be built by EMT.

I do not know if I would call that a certainty, with the recent Panoz/Haas deal concerning Elan.




L.P.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

With those DTM rumors (from a very credible source, one might add) this might not be as unrealistic as it sounds on the first glance...

The DTM rumours don't make much sense to me, unless one of DTM, or Grand Am changes their philosophies. I mean Grand Am is relatively low tech, and aimed at being relatively cost effective. DTM cars are high tech, and quite a bit more expensive. I could see DTM going to cheaper Tube Frames, but there isn't necessarily a need to tie in with Grand Am to do so. Would Grand Am become more "sedan" like in their top class?

[HJJ]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

I do not know if I would call that a certainty, with the recent Panoz/Haas deal concerning Elan.
L.P.

The economy of scale really does not justify building the cars in the states, with LMPC competitors able to buy the used '09 version of the ORECA if they want to. Carl's deal is for parts only.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

The DTM rumours don't make much sense to me, unless one of DTM, or Grand Am changes their philosophies. I mean Grand Am is relatively low tech, and aimed at being relatively cost effective. DTM cars are high tech, and quite a bit more expensive. I could see DTM going to cheaper Tube Frames, but there isn't necessarily a need to tie in with Grand Am to do so. Would Grand Am become more "sedan" like in their top class?

Here are some informations about DTM's new ruleset, imho that's not all that far removed from Grand Am's philosophy.
Of course there is no need for DTM to look for a tie in with someone - but the fact that they are talking with SGT and Grand Am suggests that DTM would like to have one or more partner series as well.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by HJJ

The economy of scale really does not justify building the cars in the states, with LMPC competitors able to buy the used '09 version of the ORECA if they want to. Carl's deal is for parts only.

nm

[Fogelhund]

Sounds a bit like a German CoT. Super GT has gone to a standard engine of 3.4 V8. The discussions with various sanctions could be interpreted in many ways, including just learning how other series have dealt with managing costs, to best implement them for their own series.

Whenever there is uniform rules, it does create a large sales base for the people making the cars, and a scale of economy... when the rules make sense.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

SCCA Trans-Am, Nascar East / West, IMSA Prototype Lites, Formula D, IndyCar 2012... there are more American coachbuilders and tuning companies than just Riley.

Of course there are, my point is that they aren't in Grand-Am for various reasons which likely speak to whether or not they would participate in the LMP-C concept for the ALMS either. Those things you list are, of course, series...some of which either used EMT as a coachbuilder (which will likely either be involved in the LMP-C project or defunct), are involving foreign as well as American companies (chassis proposal tenders are out to both Lola and Dallara for the new IndyCar), or lack the facilities to work with carbon monocoque cars.

I don't disagree that opening up the general LMP-C concept for either GARRA or the ALMS would be nice, but to some extent it may limit the ability (which already may be more limited than is being discussed) of the sanctioning body to meet the low purchase + operating cost target they are shooting for. In that sense, spec helps keep things cheaper.

[Vacarella]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

I would say the economy is hurting GA and NASCAR, like everyone! Which might mean that NASCAR will focus more directly on their main product. Gainsco and Krohn (if) leaving do not help the matter, but I do not see GA dying unless NASCAR decides to abandon it.

Once again, the LMPC class in the ALMS is not helping GA, but it is not the proverbial straw either.







L.P.

NASCAR's augmentation of Grand Am was just that. They did not have to hire other personnel to do it, they did not have to change their infrastructure. NASCAR is wholy-owned by a private family, not by shareholders. At the time of the sale, Grand Am was a profit-making venture. The chances of NASCAR "abondoning" Grand Am is not going to happen.

For Nino.