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Old 16 Jul 2018, 21:10 (Ref:3837016)   #101
Nononsensecapeesh
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Originally Posted by Aysedasi View Post
Yes, probably.

IMO.

Is it really complaining or are we just expressing our views until we end up slagging everyone off and not realising it? I just wanted to say there are certain BTCC Drivers I wasn't particularly impressed with.
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Old 16 Jul 2018, 21:13 (Ref:3837017)   #102
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Originally Posted by Nononsensecapeesh View Post
Is it really complaining or are we just expressing our views until we end up slagging everyone off and not realising it? I just wanted to say there are certain BTCC Drivers I wasn't particularly impressed with.
As I say just a personal opinion, but I think it becomes the latter and just tends to breed negativity.
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Old 16 Jul 2018, 21:26 (Ref:3837020)   #103
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Come on guys! When it comes to hypocritically extolling the virtues of tolerance and falsely presenting themselves as defenders of free speech, there is always somebody giving the first step.

We should give the good example. Talking about the "bads" is no offence if we keep the level of the conversation acceptable. Tolerance and the struggle for liberty are some of the causes that leftists falsely claims as their own. Hope we don't turn a motorsport forum into a politics arena.

Censorship is dangerous and it has to be stopped. It isn’t ethical to defend someone who says exactly what you think. Rather, it’s correct to defend anyone’s right to speak his own mind, no matter how offensive or unacceptable you consider his views.
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Old 16 Jul 2018, 22:05 (Ref:3837032)   #104
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Come on guys! When it comes to hypocritically extolling the virtues of tolerance and falsely presenting themselves as defenders of free speech, there is always somebody giving the first step.

We should give the good example. Talking about the "bads" is no offence if we keep the level of the conversation acceptable. Tolerance and the struggle for liberty are some of the causes that leftists falsely claims as their own. Hope we don't turn a motorsport forum into a politics arena.

Censorship is dangerous and it has to be stopped. It isn’t ethical to defend someone who says exactly what you think. Rather, it’s correct to defend anyone’s right to speak his own mind, no matter how offensive or unacceptable you consider his views.
Exactly, now back on subject, Kelvin Fletcher is a rarity for recent times in that he's both an actor and a gentleman racer.
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Old 16 Jul 2018, 22:13 (Ref:3837038)   #105
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Come on guys! When it comes to hypocritically extolling the virtues of tolerance and falsely presenting themselves as defenders of free speech, there is always somebody giving the first step.

We should give the good example. Talking about the "bads" is no offence if we keep the level of the conversation acceptable. Tolerance and the struggle for liberty are some of the causes that leftists falsely claims as their own. Hope we don't turn a motorsport forum into a politics arena.

Censorship is dangerous and it has to be stopped. It isn’t ethical to defend someone who says exactly what you think. Rather, it’s correct to defend anyone’s right to speak his own mind, no matter how offensive or unacceptable you consider his views.
Hrm.

So my opinion is that this thread is unnecessary and unproductive, you see that as censorship, therefore you are censoring my own opinion. Don't mention hypocrisy until you've looked around your own view as a comparison.

I genuinely don't see the need for a "worst driver in X series" thread. I just don't.

I'm all for celebrating the genuine underdog, those who race on a shoestring budget in a car that a club racer wouldn't touch, etc. but I'm not into slagging people who are trying bloody hard to do something we all would love to but have neither money nor ability.

Carry on by all means, I'm out of this one. Just keep the standard up.
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Old 17 Jul 2018, 06:00 (Ref:3837062)   #106
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Exactly, now back on subject, Kelvin Fletcher is a rarity for recent times in that he's both an actor and a gentleman racer.
But what is the point in mentioning him in this thread?

Are you saying that he is in your group of 'worst drivers'? Or as you now claim, under-performing?

If under-performing, then do you feel he is/was capable of better results, but something prevented him from getting them?

If we are genuinely going to post drivers' names in this thread, in the spirit you suggest that is intended, then what is the story you are telling us?

If this thread is genuinely going to add value, then I feel it needs to do more than just name and shame - and give as insight into something that may not be common knowledge, or provide an insight into a different perspective.

At the moment, it's all just a bit toxic still - and those standing behind the 'right to free speech' banner should remember two things:

UDHR Article 19 amendment - 'the exercise of these rights carries "special duties and responsibilities" and may "therefore be subject to certain restrictions" when necessary "[f]or respect of the rights or reputation of others"'

Joel Feinberg's Offense Principle - 'the extent, duration and social value of the speech, the ease with which it can be avoided, the motives of the speaker, the number of people offended, the intensity of the offense, and the general interest of the community'


I feel that this thread currently shows no respect for the reputation of some of the drivers mentioned, has no social value, is not in the general interest of this community and the claimed motives seem to be ignored?
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Old 17 Jul 2018, 10:41 (Ref:3837086)   #107
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Mark Howard finished the 2016 season on minus 3 points thanks to various penalties applied during the course of the year. Most the these were due to poor driving.

Does that count? Is he the only driver in BTCC history to finish with a negative points tally?
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Old 17 Jul 2018, 10:47 (Ref:3837088)   #108
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Mark Howard finished the 2016 season on minus 3 points thanks to various penalties applied during the course of the year. Most the these were due to poor driving.

Does that count? Is he the only driver in BTCC history to finish with a negative points tally?
Dan Welch, 2014, -40 points
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Old 17 Jul 2018, 11:48 (Ref:3837096)   #109
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Welch and Hyla Breese, but that was due to technical reasons
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Old 17 Jul 2018, 12:58 (Ref:3837115)   #110
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Welch and Hyla Breese, but that was due to technical reasons
Dave Brodie in 1989. (-37)
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Old 17 Jul 2018, 13:34 (Ref:3837122)   #111
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Dave Brodie in 1989. (-37)
Don't think that earns him a mention in a 'Worst since 2001' thread.
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Old 17 Jul 2018, 13:42 (Ref:3837124)   #112
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Don't think that earns him a mention in a 'Worst since 2001' thread.
My mistake.
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Old 17 Jul 2018, 13:53 (Ref:3837129)   #113
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My mistake.
Although it does go to show that finishing on -ve points is not as rare as may initially be thought - so perhaps those that have done so recently haven't performed as bad as appears (in the grand scheme of things)?
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Old 17 Jul 2018, 16:05 (Ref:3837143)   #114
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Although it does go to show that finishing on -ve points is not as rare as may initially be thought - so perhaps those that have done so recently haven't performed as bad as appears (in the grand scheme of things)?
I think worst is a harsh word to use though I am no less guilty of using it than anyone else, I was thinking of F1/GP Rejects as their forum once covered a similar topic, appropriately called BTCC Rejects.
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