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Old 25 May 2000, 20:21 (Ref:2741)   #1
Sparky
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Hot on the heels of kmchow's stunning Autosport-derived BTTC announcement last week, I have more news...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>BTCC adopts low-cost rules approach

British Touring Car Championship bosses have chosen a low-cost Super Touring formula to be the future of Britains premier tin-top category.
The decision ends months of speculation, and allows teams and manufacturers to plan ahead for 2001
According to BMP director Rob Bain: "We've almost taken the original 2001 regulations and worked backwards."
The new format will retain two-litre engines, but power will likely be around 270bhp, as apposed to the current 300bhp. Unlike the previous 2001 regulations, five and six-cylinder engines will be permitted in addition to the usual four-cylinder units.
A number of specified parts will be common to all cars, including a six-speed sequential gearbox.
All will use 17in wheels, 2in smaller than the current ST specification, but 2in bigger than a super production car.
An aerodynamic package has not been decided upon, but a cosmetic airdam and rear wing is almost certainly under consideration. Front wheel arches could also be modified.
Suspension will be road based, but some modifications will be permitted to strengthen key parts.
The changes are expected to slow lap times by four to five seconds.
"Manufacturers need value for mone," said Bain. It is hoped a new car will cost no more than £120,000.
Honda motorsport manager William de Braekeleer welcomed the regulations, but has not committed to them. "It's a good direction. At the moment I can't say if we'll participate - that's up to Honda UK." he said.
Leading independant Matt Neal has also backed the new regulations. They will allow his Team Dynamics outfit to buy cars direct from the manufacturers. However, as Neal pointed out: "You're still going to be against the big boys, and without putting myself down, they'll be employing the cream of the drivers."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What do you think? Are you happy with that? We've debated it to heck, and they've decided.

I think they're good. My only gripe is that they might allow front wheel arches to be modified. The wheels are 17in, the cars probably won't be as low (on road-derived suspension) so why bother?

What about the re-introduction of 5 and six cylinder powerplants? What other manufacturers could you see wanting to get involved? Who makes a 2-litre 6-pot?

Whaddya think?
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Old 25 May 2000, 20:49 (Ref:2742)   #2
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Class B ?

RWD ? 4WD ?

BMW ? Audi ? Alfa ? Peugeot ? Nissan ? Volvo ? Renault ? Mazda ? Rover ? Toyota ?

Lots of questions to answer...

There was a brief mention that Peugeot are considering re-entering the BTCC in 2001 - and are expecting 25-30 car grids. If this is the case, can't wait!

I have to say though that I am considerably more confident in the future of the series under BMP than Gow...
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Old 25 May 2000, 21:23 (Ref:2743)   #3
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Yes, FB. Many questions left unanswered...

And BMP... I'll second that promotion!
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Old 26 May 2000, 01:11 (Ref:2744)   #4
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Thanks for the latest update Sparky!

Hmmm, so does the rules look a lot like the '92 Class 2 rules. Looks like a pretty balanced--between street and race--set of rules. I hope all the automakers come back.

But will BMP require the entries be sedan based? I'm not too keen on seeing coupes/hatchbacks anymore! Biased/stubborn #@&% ain't I?? ;-)

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Old 26 May 2000, 01:43 (Ref:2745)   #5
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I think it's generally accepted that ST cars are four door sedans.
There are plenty of classes for pseudo sports cars!

Let the saloons play!
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Old 26 May 2000, 02:37 (Ref:2746)   #6
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17 inch wheels? Bah! 18 inch atleast! Even amature racing in the U.S. uses 17 inch wheels, and most of em look like there 15's! The BTCC cars will look like a body builder, thats got 2 inch round legs!

Phesto

[This message has been edited by Phesto (edited 26 May 2000).]
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Old 26 May 2000, 07:22 (Ref:2747)   #7
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Dan Friel should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridDan Friel should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Never going to happen - Honda haven't even committed themselves!!! Sorry to be very pessimistic guys, but I just can't see it, which manufacturer is going to sign up??
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Old 26 May 2000, 23:49 (Ref:2748)   #8
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Sparky wrote:

&gt;I think it's generally accepted that ST &gt;cars are four door sedans.
&gt;
I ask that b/c in a recent related article, Pug said they were interested in bringing their 306 h/b to race, and making cars available to privateers as well.

&gt;There are plenty of classes for pseudo &gt;sports cars!
&gt;
A big AMEN to that comment!!

&gt;Let the saloons play!
&gt;
Yeahh!!!

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Old 27 May 2000, 00:03 (Ref:2749)   #9
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kmchow, BMP are to relax the minimum length requirement by 50mm, so as to allow a whole new breed of car into the fray. There are planty of cars just inside the current 4.2m length regs. Peugeot will likely use the five-door 307 hatch, which is the 306 replacement due next year.

Using hatches is nothing new of course. Do you remember the 'discussion' Peter Mallett and I had over the 'DGH' phenomenon? The 'Dirty Great Hole' as found at the rear of any hatch worth it's salt.

I maintained that Ford had reverted to the four-door saloon, in a bid to alleviate and 'flex' in the less-torsionally rigid hatch bodyshell.
Peter was adamant that it was all down to aero gains, butwe never really sorted it out. We both conceded a little ground, but I sense a return to the good old days of heart-felt debate!

Whaddya reckon, Pete?
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Old 27 May 2000, 16:28 (Ref:2750)   #10
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I'm glad the wheels aren't going to be as small as class B - those cars look pretty stupid - but I guess that's not really the point. What we want is close racing and the current teams to stay, with new drivers/marques joining or re-joining. There are still questions to be answered like Fatbloke said, but it's looking good for now.
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Old 27 May 2000, 17:27 (Ref:2751)   #11
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Sparky wrote:

&gt;There are planty of cars just inside the &gt;current 4.2m length regs. Peugeot will &gt;likely use the five-door 307 hatch, which &gt;is the 306 replacement due next year.
&gt;
I hope you're right, I hate to see VW bugs, h/bs and coupes spoiling our fun!!! Yeah, I recall the older Civics/Sentra/Protege were below the minimum length requirement but was still allowed to race in the JTCC.

I recall the great DGH debate. Let's compromise and say it was probably a combination of both? =)

Wish they would run 18" wheels, that would still be a compromise? OTOH, I guess the jump in wheel size causes a disproportionate jump in cost.

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Old 27 May 2000, 17:48 (Ref:2752)   #12
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That's exactly right kmchow, using the 17's restricts not only, as you say the cost of wheels, but tyres and more importantly, brakes too.

One other thing to remember, 17in wheels haven't been used for a long time in ST, so every team can rest assured that no team has any telemtry or tyre data that will be of any use. This is possibly more important the the cost issue. Initially we can expect to see very close racing with all new set-up.

You're also right about the length 'thing' - I'd hate the BTTC to get any TLC...

Tiny Little Cars!!!
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Old 27 May 2000, 21:29 (Ref:2753)   #13
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I would also hate to see silly little cars in the BTCC, But I would like to see a greater number and variety of cars in the races!

I'm chuffed to bits that they have gone for a form of Super Tourer rather than Super Production. Now lets hope for close and exciting racing next year!

Wouldn't mind some of it this year either
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Old 28 May 2000, 23:34 (Ref:2754)   #14
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I've read a lot about what people have been sayin about the future and beyond, and I thought I'd throw my opinon's in for a grillin.

I'm sorry if non of you agree with me but I absolutly loved the last breed of ST's with TWR's S40's with there big rims, wings and front arches being my all time fav.

But, things move on and seem to move in cycles, the new rules after much speculation are finally here and I think that they seem pretty good myself.

A drop in speed and lap times does not bother me at all, I don't really care if someones just done a 1min 30 or whatever, I just want to see close racing, by cars that look like and sound like the baddest road cars you have ever seen.

Larger rims are a must and 17's are fine, If a car ain't any lower than a std. road car so what?. Theres been a lot said about wings and splitters but I think that when a car ain't got them, it don't look good. If they stick some on that just makes the car look pretty thats a lot better than non at all.

I hope to see much larger grids now and new and old school manufacturers and more priveteers come and race, but I don't want to see 306's against Accords, one size please or sepperate classes.

The NSC is good and I love the racing they put on, but as before the lack of wings, large rims an differant size motors is a down side but I'd love to see that series become a feeder to the new style BTCC.

I must say I'm supprised BMP have opted for these rules, and i'd like to see if these will become the FIA bench mark, who knows?

I am expecting some 'Ed quoted such an such' so do ya worse.

ha,ha

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Old 29 May 2000, 15:53 (Ref:2755)   #15
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I have one word to say on Eddie_harasym's comments and that's "DITTO!".

I'm kinda not suprised BMP went with Class 2-ish rules since going SP would class with the established NSC. And you wouldn't want that. Furthermore, the BTCC IS the PREMIERE touring car series in England if not Europe!
Last statement could be challenged now that DTM is back! ;-)


[This message has been edited by kmchow (edited 29 May 2000).]
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Old 29 May 2000, 21:55 (Ref:2756)   #16
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I'm sorry, but have you guys actually seen an NSC race for yourself ? It's the BTCC of the early nineties all over again - superb stuff! Without any disrespect to the drivers in the NSC, though i'm sure they'll readily agree, none of those cars or drivers are genuine top-liners.

I feel sure that a field of Prodrive, WSR, JAS or 888 prepared machines, driven by drivers of Mullers, Platos or Thompsons calibre, would provide a much better spectacle than the current crop of machinery (which is frankly pathetic to watch)

And I cannot see the thing with the wings either. Sure they look nice, but if they're stopping cars from running together and passing (as they obviously are) then they have to go. Full stop. These are racing cars, not show cars. At least they should be.
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Old 30 May 2000, 23:58 (Ref:2757)   #17
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Dan Friel should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridDan Friel should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Sorry to be pessimistic, and I know I lot of you guys loved the ST cars... but the whole thing is going to be as dead as the good old Dodo in a matter of months. The only thing that'll be running next year is SP cars (or perhaps slightly modified)..

Because:

You cannot have an isolated series within Britain (no other countries will adopt these proposed rules) and expect manufacturer support. Simple as that, because at the end of the day - they need a return for the cash they spend....

SP here we come, and it looks pretty good to me (please help Fatbloke!!!!).
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Old 31 May 2000, 17:31 (Ref:2758)   #18
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Are you saying I need help ?
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Old 31 May 2000, 23:22 (Ref:2762)   #19
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Dan Friel should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridDan Friel should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Absolutley spot on Maisie... What's the point in all the mods, which cost so much money??? Why not go motor racing?? There are so many (what i term) 'Gary Boyz' who spend more on their XR3i, than an entire racing season.. Doesn't make sense to me..

I'm looking at racing next year - and there are so many options for a reasonable cost, one of which is converting my MG Midget to race car spec, but this still can be used on road..

BTCC is dead because all the mods have made it sooo boring (I'd rather watch an F1 race for christ's sake) and the manufacturers don't like it, because the cars look nothing like the real road cars..
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Old 1 Jun 2000, 07:27 (Ref:2759)   #20
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Dan Friel should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridDan Friel should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
No, I just thought I may need some back up.. People seem to want to flog a dead horse, just as they did to Grp C racing - it'll all go pear shaped in the end..
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Old 1 Jun 2000, 07:38 (Ref:2760)   #21
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I personally love the look of ST cars. It was love at first sight for me. When I saw the SP cars for the first time I was unimpressed. I see racier looking cars on the streets of So.Cal. When Speedvision showed the first round of the 2000 BTCC season, I was glad they didn't give the weak looking SP cars any coverage. I'm glad BMP has decided not to go with SP rules next season, even though I lament their decision to change formats at all. But if they must, I'm glad they will be keeping the wings and spoilers, even if only for cosmetic reasons. I like racers that look like racers first, road cars second.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sparky:

I think they're good. My only gripe is that they might allow front wheel arches to be modified. The wheels are 17in, the cars probably won't be as low (on road-derived suspension) so why bother?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I drive a '93 Honda Civic that I've made to resemble a ST car. I was inspired when I saw the Civic sedans running in the 95 JTCC. But I digress. My Civ rolls on 17 x 7 Team Dynamics rims. It has an anjustable coil-over suspenion set up that allows for a drop of 4". My car sits right now a little over 2" below stock height (any lower and the front spoiler would make driveways very difficult) and under hard turning, the tires sometimes rub the edge of the fender. I've dropped my car even further, but turning became impossible. It is a common practice around here for those with 17" wheels and larger to go have their front fenders rolled to allow for greater clearance. Mind you this is neccesary even riding at 2" inches below stock, with all suspension components (other than springs/shocks) remaining stock.
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Old 1 Jun 2000, 08:24 (Ref:2761)   #22
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Sorry to appear boring, but what's the point in making that many modifications to your road car if it becomes impractical to drive it? There's no need to fit racing mods unles you are actually going to race it. OK, it looks different to eevrything else on the road, but to the rest of us mere mortals, the image most boy racers present is not a flattering one.

Anyway, surely the prime reason for designing racing cars is to make it possible for a large nunber of people to race, and to give close, exciting racing. Aesthetics ought to come second. I like cars that looks spectacular, sure, but I'd rather watch 30 2CVs door handle to door handle than 10 fire spitting modded beasts circulating without getting anywhere near each other.
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Old 1 Jun 2000, 17:30 (Ref:2763)   #23
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Dan Friel wrote :
You cannot have an isolated series within Britain (no other countries will adopt these proposed rules) and expect manufacturer support. Simple as that, because at the end of the day - they need a return for the cash they spend....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe you should explain that to the organisers of the DTM, or the V8Supercars, or the South American TC2000 series, or the South African touring car series, or ....

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Old 1 Jun 2000, 21:25 (Ref:2764)   #24
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All my life,I've been around cars and customizing. Back in '86 in junior high, I read (or rather looked at the pics in) Japanese tuning magazines. I couldn't wait to get my first car. When it finally did happen, I was rockin' a then new '88 Buick Regal with the 2.8 V-6 and deep rims and a dropped ride. Some might say it was an old farts car, but it was fast, and I got a lot of compliments. Well back in '93 I purchased my beloved Civic, and right from the start, it has undergone several mods and tweeks, and I'm not done yet. Boy racer? Hardly. When I drive, alone, at night, with the windows down, the music playing, I can't think of anywhere I'd rather be. I love driving, and anything I can do to further my enjoyment of the road will be done. Cost is not an object where my happines is concerned. People often compliment my car and my choice of accessories. And some of these people have cars well beyond my means. But they Understand, and thats why they do it. Negative connotations? I think not. As for going racing, thats exactly what I do. Both street and official race events are big here. But as for not making any sense, well you tell me something. I've visited this forum many times, and just recently decided to post. I've noticed an underlying theme that permeates nearly all the messages found here and it puzzles me. Messages recalling the "good old days" of BTCC abound. If you are so dissapointed by what the BTCC has become, then why do you spend money to attend the races? Why bother to watch them on TV? Why give it your continued patronage? If NSC is infinitely superior, then why not abandon the BTCC altogether. After all, there's always the Mika and Schuey show. To me, continued griping is what truly makes no sense. As I've stated, I love ST cars, not watered down SP or NSC or even Grp. N. If the BTCC dies, then it dies. I'm sure there will be a resurection before long, just like the DTM.
So if you want to rock a Midget, go for it Austin. You do your thing,and I'll do mine.
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Old 1 Jun 2000, 21:50 (Ref:2765)   #25
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Ah, but the good old days are the whole issue.

I HAVEN'T been to a BTCC meeting since 1994, because I was finding better motor sport entertainment elsewhere - and I try to attend at least 20 meetings a year.

The Mika and Michael show won't encourage me to stay in on a Sunday afternoon. I wanna go racing!

And only a couple of weeks ago, it dawned on me that the last BTCC race I bothered to videotape was last year's Snetterton night race, and the most recent BTCC model I have in a 200 strong collection of diecasts is Eugene O'Brien's Peugeot 405.

If I'm losing interest, and I am as diehard as they come, what hope for the average casual observer?

On another note, can I just say that I think it's a bit off for everyone to be criticising S-H's car. Pride of ownership counts for a lot, and if S, you feel your Honda is worth putting time, effort and hard-earned cash into, then it surely is worth it.

I certainly didn't like it when on one of these forums, people took a few cracks at my beloved Bentleys the other day, and while there is at least one fellow who regularly posts here, who is very proud of a set of wheels I wouldn't give garage space to, I would never dream of telling him so. Because he's a friend.

Does that make sense, people?

Just no one admit to liking a Ford Focus or Ford Ka, okay? Otherwise my principles may yet slip.
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