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Old 2 Jan 2019, 15:51 (Ref:3873625)   #1776
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
Blaming BE for everything is very bandwagon.

F1 tyre bidding was not restricted to 1 bidder. Currently nobody else wants to make tyres. Michelin only wants to if the new tyres fit their idea of what an F1 tyre would be. You can open it up to 10 different suppliers if you want, but nobody is interested.

But that's not Pirelli's fault, though. The criteria for the current contracts for tyre supply lays at the feet of the FIA and FOM.

And as Pirelli have stated, it was mandated that the cost for the tyres had to be capped which made it only feasibly possible (financially) to produce the tyres by machine, not hand crafted as Pirelli would have wanted.

It is really no wonder that other manufacturers are not clamouring to become the sole supplier of tyres for Formula 1 when the contract stipulates that the tyres must be crap (translates into being "more exciting for racing").
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Old 2 Jan 2019, 16:00 (Ref:3873627)   #1777
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Originally Posted by Mike Harte View Post
But that's not Pirelli's fault, though. The criteria for the current contracts for tyre supply lays at the feet of the FIA and FOM.

And as Pirelli have stated, it was mandated that the cost for the tyres had to be capped which made it only feasibly possible (financially) to produce the tyres by machine, not hand crafted as Pirelli would have wanted.

It is really no wonder that other manufacturers are not clamouring to become the sole supplier of tyres for Formula 1 when the contract stipulates that the tyres must be crap (translates into being "more exciting for racing").
I never said it's Pirelli's fault? I said that F1 tyres are not restricted to a single manufacturer through commercial or regulations. There is no magical Bernie decision to be reversed regarding restricting tyre constructors.

Pretty sure people would blame Bernie for world hunger if they thought they could link it to F1 regulations somehow.
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Old 7 Jan 2019, 07:27 (Ref:3874402)   #1778
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
Blaming BE for everything is very bandwagon.

F1 tyre bidding was not restricted to 1 bidder. Currently nobody else wants to make tyres.
Actually Hankook tendered for 2020 but were rejected. Also in 2010, Avon Cooper tendered but were also rejected.

They could be rolling on Hankooks in 2020 onwards, even though they required 13" for 2020 only, yet FOM/FIA rejected Hankook!

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It is really no wonder that other manufacturers are not clamouring to become the sole supplier of tyres for Formula 1 when the contract stipulates that the tyres must be crap (translates into being "more exciting for racing").
Hankook were keen but were rejected.

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 7 Jan 2019 at 07:35.
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Old 7 Jan 2019, 15:14 (Ref:3874495)   #1779
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
Blaming BE for everything is very bandwagon.

F1 tyre bidding was not restricted to 1 bidder. Currently nobody else wants to make tyres. Michelin only wants to if the new tyres fit their idea of what an F1 tyre would be. You can open it up to 10 different suppliers if you want, but nobody is interested.
Nice try on moving the goal posts. BE decided that restricting the tyre supply to the best tender was a really good idea and then dictating the tyre specs was even a better one. The result has been less than stellar but perhaps you are in the minority and disagree??
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Old 7 Jan 2019, 19:25 (Ref:3874555)   #1780
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Nice try on moving the goal posts. BE decided that restricting the tyre supply to the best tender was a really good idea and then dictating the tyre specs was even a better one. The result has been less than stellar but perhaps you are in the minority and disagree??
Speaking of moving the goal posts...

BE didn't restrict the tyre supply to the best tender. He restricted the tyre supply to the only serious contender at the time. That isn't the same as restricting it for the sake of it - that's just business common sense. F1 was in a difficult place with Bridgestone pulling out after losing Michelin and Goodyear not being interested. Pirelli was the only serious option.

Anyone can submit a tender to make anything. Avon was turned down for the same reason I'll get turned down for my tender to supply ferry services in the case of Brexit - there's absolutely no hope in hell of me being able to supply the service I'm offering. And F1 doesn't want to be in the position of looking utterly ridiculous when Avon tyres are the F1 equivalent of the Nissan LMP1, or Multimatic LMP2, or Ginetta LMP1, or Ginetta LMP3. F1 absolutely insists that they can never have a repeat of something like the Michelin Indy debacle or the Mastercard Lola, so Avon was never ever going to be allowed. Can you imagine the fall out when someone is tied to the Avon tyres for a year and they're like racing in a different class? It'd be like having a Honda engine, but worse.

Maybe Hankook could've stretched to it, but they weren't kicking around when F1 needed them, and they weren't providing tyres of that level 9 years ago either. At least now they have DTM, which is prototype levels of performance. Before that, all they had were some GT cars.

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The result has been less than stellar but perhaps you are in the minority and disagree??
Almost like you haven't read what I said, lol. I've said very little positive of Pirelli (F1 or otherwise), or of the current F1 tyre situation. I just think that blaming BE is almost like the ultimate F1 bandwagon, and generally the easy answer for people who don't understand the sport. Or business, in this case.
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Old 7 Jan 2019, 20:13 (Ref:3874563)   #1781
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And F1 doesn't want to be in the position of looking utterly ridiculous when Avon tyres are the F1 equivalent of the Nissan LMP1, or Multimatic LMP2, or Ginetta LMP1, or Ginetta LMP3. F1 absolutely insists that they can never have a repeat of something like the Michelin Indy debacle or the Mastercard Lola, so Avon was never ever going to be allowed. Can you imagine the fall out when someone is tied to the Avon tyres for a year and they're like racing in a different class?
It was for all teams to have Avon tyres.

Avon very successfully supplied all Formula 3000 entrants with tyres, they also successfully supplied all A1GP entrants with tyres. Cooper successfully supply all Indy Lights entrants with tyres. The idea Avon Cooper tyres would be inadequate is absurd.
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Old 9 Jan 2019, 08:22 (Ref:3874903)   #1782
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Hopefully not moving too far off topic here but reading the last few posts has sparked a memory (or a dream I once had!). Wasn't there a time (early 80's?) when suddenly there wasn't a tyre supply for a short while (Goodyear workers strike or something?) and Bernie stepped in and got Avon to make & supply alternative rubber until the problem was resolved (tyres bought of course from Bernie)?
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Old 9 Jan 2019, 14:37 (Ref:3874958)   #1783
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No Goodyear pulled out at the beginning of 81 and most teams switched to Michelin, before Goodyear came back mid season
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Old 9 Jan 2019, 16:04 (Ref:3874979)   #1784
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No Goodyear pulled out at the beginning of 81 and most teams switched to Michelin, before Goodyear came back mid season
OK, thanks, it must have been something I dreamed up them (or it was the late 70's?)
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Old 10 Jan 2019, 10:13 (Ref:3875169)   #1785
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Of course Pirelli are to blame...they are willing participants...

They put thermally degrading composites in their tires to induce artificial degradation, and then use f1 to market 'performance' tires - this in itself is a total disgrace.

Of course F1 are to blame for creating this situation...but Pirelli are not even even capable consistently producing compounds F1 theoretically desires (i.e the hard tire that offers neither performance nor longevity etc.)
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Old 10 Jan 2019, 10:33 (Ref:3875187)   #1786
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Yes and the races were very exciting so much so that I could not stay awake for them.
Just like the last 5 years. What's changed?
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Old 11 Jan 2019, 23:24 (Ref:3875620)   #1787
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Hamilton: Current F1 tyres dictate no out-and-out racing

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/911812...tandout-racing


“I don’t know how it has been for everyone else but there have not been a lot of races where you have been able to push to the maximum. There is so much lift and coast because the tyres overheat the whole time." Hamilton
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Old 12 Jan 2019, 11:17 (Ref:3875683)   #1788
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Of course Pirelli are to blame...they are willing participants...

They put thermally degrading composites in their tires to induce artificial degradation, and then use f1 to market 'performance' tires - this in itself is a total disgrace.

Of course F1 are to blame for creating this situation...but Pirelli are not even even capable consistently producing compounds F1 theoretically desires (i.e the hard tire that offers neither performance nor longevity etc.)
You can't be serious.
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Old 12 Jan 2019, 19:09 (Ref:3875756)   #1789
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Ive finally found the Autosporrt article where the FIA tender specifies the amount of relative degredation the hard/medium/soft compound tyres must meet for the new tyre supply contract

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/137532/
There will be three compounds at each race, as expected with the simplified hard, medium and soft names. The FIA characterises the tyres as follows:

- Hard compound: 2s degradation achieved at 22% race distance Base lap time

- Medium compound: 2s degradation achieved at 18% race distance 1.2s/lap quicker than Hard compound

- Soft compound: 2s degradation achieved at 10% race distance 2.2s/lap quicker than Hard compound

I assume something like this was written into the current tender and contract which Pirelli are fulfilling so you can't blame them for the state of the tyres - just the requirements of the contract.
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Old 12 Jan 2019, 22:33 (Ref:3875788)   #1790
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excellent find!
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Old 12 Jan 2019, 22:38 (Ref:3875789)   #1791
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A really sensible decision. Keeping things simple in terms of tyre compounds. And no tyre warmers will make it more challenging for the drivers
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Old 13 Jan 2019, 03:35 (Ref:3875827)   #1792
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Ive finally found the Autosporrt article where the FIA tender specifies the amount of relative degredation the hard/medium/soft compound tyres must meet for the new tyre supply contract

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/137532/
There will be three compounds at each race, as expected with the simplified hard, medium and soft names. The FIA characterises the tyres as follows:

- Hard compound: 2s degradation achieved at 22% race distance Base lap time

- Medium compound: 2s degradation achieved at 18% race distance 1.2s/lap quicker than Hard compound

- Soft compound: 2s degradation achieved at 10% race distance 2.2s/lap quicker than Hard compound

I assume something like this was written into the current tender and contract which Pirelli are fulfilling so you can't blame them for the state of the tyres - just the requirements of the contract.
Ignoring the badly worded:

"Once a period of aggressive driving or close following ceases, the tyre should rapidly recover the lower level of degradation per lap associated with the more benign conditions."

Once overheated, the Pirelli's never recover grip or wear!

Last edited by wnut; 13 Jan 2019 at 03:42.
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Old 13 Jan 2019, 09:22 (Ref:3875867)   #1793
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You can't be serious.
1000%
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Old 13 Jan 2019, 13:39 (Ref:3875914)   #1794
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Of course Pirelli are to blame...they are willing participants...
Who isn’t a willing participant in the sport? From the manufacturers to the drivers and... even the fans? Permanently ban them all for their participation in this farce! Burn it all to the ground!



Richard
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Old 13 Jan 2019, 16:05 (Ref:3875931)   #1795
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Ignoring the badly worded:

"Once a period of aggressive driving or close following ceases, the tyre should rapidly recover the lower level of degradation per lap associated with the more benign conditions."

Once overheated, the Pirelli's never recover grip or wear!
i’m no expert, but how would that even be possible? every kind of racing tyre has a number of heat cycles it can realistically handle before it degrades permanently?
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Old 13 Jan 2019, 16:42 (Ref:3875935)   #1796
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i’m no expert, but how would that even be possible? every kind of racing tyre has a number of heat cycles it can realistically handle before it degrades permanently?

And how can Pirelli control/police how the teams use their rubber. Some teams subject their tyres to different heat cycles to others, some send out the cars for a lap or two to scrub the new ones in before putting them back into the tyre heaters. And so on.

As has been found out in the past, the teams cannot even be trusted to only use the Pirelli instructions on maximum camber, which can also have a detrimental effect on the tyres.
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Old 13 Jan 2019, 18:08 (Ref:3875948)   #1797
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Originally Posted by Mike Harte View Post
And how can Pirelli control/police how the teams use their rubber. Some teams subject their tyres to different heat cycles to others, some send out the cars for a lap or two to scrub the new ones in before putting them back into the tyre heaters. And so on.

As has been found out in the past, the teams cannot even be trusted to only use the Pirelli instructions on maximum camber, which can also have a detrimental effect on the tyres.
Not to mention teams not sticking to Pirelli recommended pressure parameters.
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Old 13 Jan 2019, 23:08 (Ref:3876001)   #1798
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i’m no expert, but how would that even be possible? every kind of racing tyre has a number of heat cycles it can realistically handle before it degrades permanently?
Bella, the problem with the Pirellis is that once they have exceeded a critical temperature which is lower on their tyres than the other manufacturers due to the molding plasticizers required to extrude them, the tyres never recover. Normal racing tyres are hand laid and do not contain the plasticizers that go off permanently, this means that they recover when cooled, the Pirellis don't.

The FIA needs to pay Pirelli more for the tyres, so the can afford to hand lay the tyres without plasticizers.

Pirelli had largely solved the problem until the FIA went hybrid and heavy, the further exacerbated the problem with increased download to make the heavy cars faster, this caused a lot more energy, translated as heat, to be put through the tyres than was originally intended. Designed for one use, used for another.
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Old 14 Jan 2019, 09:00 (Ref:3876060)   #1799
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The FIA needs to pay Pirelli more for the tyres, so the can afford to hand lay the tyres without plasticizers.

The FIA does not pay for the tyres; all teams have to purchase the tyres that are supplied.

Prior to this change in regulations, some teams were paying for a supply, whilst others were being paid to use the tyres. The current system creates a level playing field as far as the supply of tyres is concerned, although it doesn't address the problem that certain tyres suit certain cars better than others.

However, I do believe that the FIA does fix the price, just that it doesn't actually pay the bill.
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Old 15 Jan 2019, 03:39 (Ref:3876204)   #1800
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Who isn’t a willing participant in the sport? From the manufacturers to the drivers and... even the fans? Permanently ban them all for their participation in this farce! Burn it all to the ground!



Richard
They have the choice not to pursue the tender, simple as that. They should say, as a tire company - one that supposedly specializes in performance tires that - "we will not compete in a series that requires us to construct a tire that is deliberately engineered to degrade. It is not in our ethos."

Michelin would never put themselves in that position.
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