Origins of Special Saloon Cars?

[driftwood]

house prices are in essence all relative that extra 500 quid is the equivelant to 12% more
so if you where buying today at £350 k you would need an extra £37/8k not an easy task and today mortgages are easier to get today than back then when you HAD to have saved 20% deposit PLUS been with bank /Building society for 2 years or more and THEN queue up for a mortgage and it was a privilege to be offered one!
Once you had been given one the manager then gave you a speech about paying the mortgage on time and he will be watching your account

[driftwood]

Angus
are you saying the gallon of fuel was 5 shillings?
im told a shilling was equal to 5 new pence
£1 in old money was not 100 pennies like a Decimal pound

you probably recall moaning like everyone else when your old money was decimalised and things cost more
this is what the french belgians italians germans have told me happened with the euro and for 4 years they worke din old currency to calculate new euro price
even today my german mate quotes what they sold in D mark for the BMW piston crank rods i seek then give sme euro cost

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by driftwood

Angus
are you saying the gallon of fuel was 5 shillings?
im told a shilling was equal to 5 new pence
£1 in old money was not 100 pennies like a Decimal pound

yes; 12 pence (d) to the shilling, 20 s to the £. I worked on the pumps on a Sunday morning in about 1965 (doing O levels at the time so well underage by today's nanny standards), 'star' had just come in,. 2star=4s 10d and 5star=over 5s. About the only motor using 5star was the P6 Rover ISTR.

Originally Posted by driftwood

you probably recall moaning like everyone else when your old money was decimalised and things cost more........

[driftwood]

would you prefer to have lived thru the 60`s and 70s as a young person or have to deal with the crepe we have had the last 20 years
some things are easier now some way to easy ( ie credit and look at the mess folk get into) i think back then folk appreciated what they had and how they earned it

Motorsport was a lot cheaper in the 70`s to do than it is now im sure in the 60`s it was more expensive but they did get good gate $ and paid start money or prize money to offset the overall expense
was it the sport of wealthy chaps?
I know back then the emphasis on property was different to the way it is now many people rented and values did not go up a great deal in a short time frame so "disposable" income was possibly more then but cars where expensive?

[Alan Brown]

Originally Posted by driftwood

you are correct AT in the above statement but you will find that many homologated cars then filtered down to special saloon racers over the next 2 or 3 seasons to race
Some where modified with lighter panels maybe some woder wheels etc
Fraser Imps is a classic example 65 Gp2/5 car becomes 66 club car fibreglass bonnet boot wider rims
After reading my 71 2 73 Autosports i often came across saloon cars for sale that had origins in Broadspeed or alan mann racing teams

Or even took part while they were new. Group 2 Escort RS1600 (2.0 BDA) were used in club races eg Mike Crabtree (Willment) and Andy Rouse (Broadspeed – Team Esso Uniflo). On one weekend in June in 1973 the latter was on pole and set fastest lap at Castle Combe on the Saturday (punctured in the race) and then repeated the pole and fastest lap and won the race at Thruxton on the Sunday. In addition many American V8s were originally Gp 2 such as David Howes’ Javelin.

[Jesper OH]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Regards the title of this thread and where did it all start. I read an interesting article in an American book I have at home which is basically a compilation of magazine articles and it was asking a similar question how did the hotrod and modified car scene in the States start, and the answer they put forward surprisingly enough the UK Cafe racers of the 50's and 60's (who I am proud to say I was a part of and hence my interest in all things mechanical to this day) modifing their machines by grafting Vincent engines into Norton Featherbed frames etc. and not forgetting the obligatory clip ons and rearsets.

I thought it was refreshing that the yanks actually attributed something to us Brits and wonder if the theory also ports over to the origins of special saloons.

Thank you, Al, for the contribution which somehow made me think of Charles Montier. In the 1920s he was the official importer of Ford in France and had a dealership in Paris. He entered the 1924 Le Mans 24 hour race with a Montier Speciale, said to be based on a Ford T. Various sources tells how much or little was a Ford and how much was Montiers own creation. But the story reminds me of hot rodding a saloon car. I'm not trying to beginn a "who's first", but was simply reminded to think out of the box by the Hot rod story.

Jesper

[Gerry Taylor]

Jesper. Special Saloons, and Hot Rods are completely different animals. If your thinking American Hot Rods, there may be a connection way, way back, but here in the UK, I believe that the guys that were just ahead of me in time, say the very early sixties, were the originators of Special Saloons. If you look at the photographs taken of yours truly at Brands or say, Mallory in the very early sixties you'll see we ran pretty ordinary "done-up-a-bit" road smokers. The cars altered literally week by week, as we all tried out bits we either made at home, or managed to pick up from the crumbs of the big formula teams. We travelled miles to go and collect things such as a set of valves that "Jack" at Cosworth had going cheap, or to go and see a new way of locking up a diff, or buy a set of wheel spacers! it was all so new, and we really were attempting to get the very best from our cars without spending the kind of money it went on to cost later. So, in my opinion, we were the pioneers, the instigators, the forerunners, the creators of what became known as SPECIAL SALOONS. Finally, yes, we had some very bad accidents, and lovely people were injured, badly. Pioneers like Brian Tarrant, sadly lost his life, dear Peter Proctor sadly badly burned, and many more in those far off early days, but when they stopped Special Saloons, they stopped these innovators. Never again will we see a grid full of cars that we all knew had been created to do just one thing, GO FASTER THAN THE NEXT BLOKE. No strings attached.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by Gerry Taylor

Jesper. Special Saloons, and Hot Rods are completely different animals. If your thinking American Hot Rods, there may be a connection way, way back, but here in the UK, I believe that the guys that were just ahead of me in time, say the very early sixties, were the originators of Special Saloons. If you look at the photographs taken of yours truly at Brands or say, Mallory in the very early sixties you'll see we ran pretty ordinary "done-up-a-bit" road smokers. The cars altered literally week by week, as we all tried out bits we either made at home, or managed to pick up from the crumbs of the big formula teams. We travelled miles to go and collect things such as a set of valves that "Jack" at Cosworth had going cheap, or to go and see a new way of locking up a diff, or buy a set of wheel spacers! it was all so new, and we really were attempting to get the very best from our cars without spending the kind of money it went on to cost later. So, in my opinion, we were the pioneers, the instigators, the forerunners, the creators of what became known as SPECIAL SALOONS. Finally, yes, we had some very bad accidents, and lovely people were injured, badly. Pioneers like Brian Tarrant, sadly lost his life, dear Peter Proctor sadly badly burned, and many more in those far off early days, but when they stopped Special Saloons, they stopped these innovators. Never again will we see a grid full of cars that we all knew had been created to do just one thing, GO FASTER THAN THE NEXT BLOKE. No strings attached.

All the above is too true, Gerry. I well remember working on special saloons in the 60s - no Demon Tweeks catalogue, no e-bay, no Autosport directory, no internet. if you wanted a part you trawled through the Autosport ads as early as possible on a Friday morning to beat other potential purchasors to the bits you wanted and had just seen advertised, or the small ads in Cars and Car Conversions. Alternatively there was always D&A Shells in East London but that was a hell of a journey from Yorkshire.

[Gerry Taylor]

I know, absolutely right matey. Also, remember NO Transporters...well, we did have an old commer coach toward the end of 1975. Talk about luxury!

[driftwood]

ah yes the front engined coach as a transporter that you could drive on car licence but it was never prooved if it was legal or illegal but if you had seats on the coach to carry passengers you needed a PSV licence !!

oh they where the days when it didnt matter too much but now some fkwit ashtol left wing labour treehugging lesbian will create an over night new law banning it

[zefarelly]

From talking to one long since retired engine builder, and others, who still tread the boards!, modifiying and maximising potential from stock parts was very prevalant, in many cases alternatives just wheren't available, unless Daddy worked at Cosworth!

I suppose trawling parts bins in freindly dealerships went on? which probably paved the way for the gp5 reg of family parts? It may be a dustbin lid cmpared to standard size but it is a ford valve . . .

[Alan Raine]

I used to trawl scrap yards for old 711 blocks for my formula ford. Unfortunately I think they've all gone now

[zefarelly]

last time I found a MK1 in a breakers yard was ten years ago . . . most of the scrappers are on ebay now, as are all the scrap engine components, usually filed under 'race'

[Gerry Taylor]

If (and its a big IF) I can get the picture uploaded onto the page, here's a photograph of the last word in transporters circa 1966! All mod cons were to hand, a roof, two ramps, oh, and two old cushions in the cab to block off the cold air vents. The drivers seat was held up by five old telephone directories...ask Chief Paddock Marshal Alf Glasser, he travelled all the way to Brands Hatch in it. Not an experience he enjoyed at all. But it was cheap and got us around the tracks. If I can manage to get the picture uploaded, its interesting to note that the small boy with the spanner is now heading toward his fifties!

[zefarelly]

Oak ramps Gerry, sheer luxury!

[Gerry Taylor]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

Oak ramps Gerry, sheer luxury!

Vintage Matured Ash actually matey, mind you this was pre-SWISH by a good many years. When they came on board with the initial £400. we had to have luxury PCV Ramps!!!!!

[free-litre-v6]

Originally Posted by boyzee

Photo,s from 1966, Terry Sangers mk1 cortina fitted with V8 and an anglia an a viva.

Hi Guys, well i believe the viva to be driven by one Bernie Harris, it had a buick 4 litre v8 engine(i think), i didn't know him at this point, he then went on to own and race Dave Brodies wide bodied capri mk2 with a gaa engine!! regards mark (colin stubbs has some photos of the viva in action)

[driftwood]

sadly Bernie is no longer with us to ask him but i would be surprised if he was racing in 1966 i didnt think he started till the mid to late 70`s
willing to stand corrected

i recall him circa 81 with the Brodie capri

[COLIN STUBBS]

Heres one!!

[driftwood]

probably at silverstone
what year?

[CJCA]

Originally Posted by Gerry Taylor

Here's the picture.

Originally Posted by driftwood

thanks Gerry
is it Lanfranchi Britten or Calcutt driving ?
i think it would be 67 or 68 as i think late 68 the cars went to Majorca and team was closed down by then

I would say that it's not Tony Lanfranchi driving. When he drove the Fraser's he had a blue front panel, and you can also see on the larger photo that the helmet is plain white. I would imagine it's Ray Calcutt or Nick Britten driving, possibly even Bernard Unett who did a couple of events in 1965 (which is, if I read the thread correctly the year of this photo)

[Gerry Taylor]

Just looking through an old scrap book, and came across these. I wonder who was driving the mini in the picture taken at WOODCOTE Silverstone? That's my old adversay Peter Baldwin behind me in Baby "B" one, but who was driving the white Imp?
Hope you enjoy these pieces of nostalgia.

[rallycrosscraig]

great pics love the 2nd one check out your driving position, commited to the corner!

[big andy]

and here is peter baldwin 40 years later driving my mini at donington

[Gerry Taylor]

Blimey! I do look as if I mean it don't I? But then so does Pete and the Imp driver too.
Peter is/was a really excellent and sportsmanlike driver (in my opinion anyway) he and I had some really great dices at Silverstone and Mallory Park. Lovely picture of your car Big Andy.
Cheers lads.