Can Alexander Albon survive at Red Bull?

[steve_r]

As soon as you are thrown into the mix with other cars like McLarens, Alpha, Alfas, then your inherant pace advantage goes out the window. Has Albon run in clean air in any race this season? Qualifying yet again put him on the back foot. Same as almost every other race this year.

[GT6]

i think his days in the top red bull team are coming to an end, another disapointing race

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by GT6

i think his days in the top red bull team are coming to an end, another disapointing race

It's odd - publicly they're still talking positively about Albon - with Gasly they were piling the pressure on, stating that he needed to improve. Either they're decided that they need to have more patience (unlikely) or they've run out of options - if they put Gasly back in it looks bad on them (basically admitting they got it wrong demoting him) or Gasly fails again and it looks bad for both Gasly and Red Bull. They can't put Kvyat back into the top team - promoted, demoted, dropped, re-instated already looks bad enough. They can't put another of their juniors in there (they'd have to serve time at Alpha Tauari).

So either they stick with Albon or go and get someone from outside their driver program (they can't really go and get another of their ex-drivers like JEV or Buemi back in either - could they really throw them straight into the senior team?).

[steve_r]

They have run out of options. Both drivers in the junior team have been promoted and then quickly demoted. The musical chairs looks like it may continue. Obviously out of the 2 Alpha drivers, it would be Gasly who gets promoted, but he was awful in the main team last time.

It's good that Red Bull have 2 teams on the grid, but surely they must be questioning why they do this when they have 3 drivers that have all underwhelmed in the main team, added to the long list that have also been discarded in recent years.

[S griffin]

I agree, it's almost like they've reached the point of no return for their drivers in more ways than one

For me Albon needs to get Saturday sorted, then he would get better results. It sounds simplistic to say that, but that's how it is

[Aysedasi]

But it's already been like that for too long. I like him, he's a good and brave racer (which gives him a leg-up in my book), but he just can't get speed out of the car on a single lap in qually.

[Greem]

If the car had been designed with Albon's driving style in mind (or Gasly's) then they would likely have done a lot better.

However, that car's development is entirely aimed at SuperMax, so everything about it plays to his strengths - the way it turns, the engine power profile, the brake system, everything. There are only a few drivers that could get in it and match, or be close, Max.

[gert]

Originally Posted by Greem

If the car had been designed with Albon's driving style in mind (or Gasly's) then they would likely have done a lot better.

However, that car's development is entirely aimed at SuperMax, so everything about it plays to his strengths - the way it turns, the engine power profile, the brake system, everything. There are only a few drivers that could get in it and match, or be close, Max.

I think that is exactly the case and a big part of the "problem"

So if Red Bull want its 2nd driver to perform better, then they need to
* make sure the car is more to that driver's liking.
OR
* find a driver that has similar car preferrences


If neither can or will be done, and the 2nd driver will have to make the best of what he is given, Red Bull will probably need to accept that they are basically a 1-car team with occasional highs and lows from that 2nd car.

[S griffin]

Red Bull seem to be like Lotus in the 60s. Being number 1 driver is one of the greatest things, being number 2 driver is a poisoned chalice

[Born Racer]

It reminds me a bit of Benetton in the mid-90s, with, ironically, Jos's son as the team-leader this time.

[steve nielsen]

I really don't get all the "the car is designed for Max" talk

if you look at Red Bulls cars, the basic high rake design has been lexactly the same long before Max was there.

and Albon himself said he had a simular driving style to Max.

And looking at the spins Max had in practice, it's not exactly a car that really suits his driving style that good.

so maybe it's just a case of one driver beeing better than the other?

And Albon probably gets more "protection" because he races under the Thai flag and Red Bull still is a 51% Thai company

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

I really don't get all the "the car is designed for Max" talk

if you look at Red Bulls cars, the basic high rake design has been lexactly the same long before Max was there.

and Albon himself said he had a simular driving style to Max.

And looking at the spins Max had in practice, it's not exactly a car that really suits his driving style that good.

so maybe it's just a case of one driver beeing better than the other?

And Albon probably gets more "protection" because he races under the Thai flag and Red Bull still is a 51% Thai company

As with everything in life its probably a combination of the 2.

Mika Hakkinen did a good podcast stating what is being talked about in this thread.

Look no further than the likes of Vettel and how his driving is affected by having a car designed around him or not.

Of course, the best adapt, Hamilton did it when joining mclaren as did max when he joined red bull, charles when he joined ferrari.

[chunterer]

Clearly Alex missed a great opportunity to build on his Mugello podium. He never seemed to get much out of the car all weekend.

However, until Horner or Marko actually start to criticise him, he ain't going anywhere!

I think a lot of people are overly harsh anyway. The Alpha Tauri is clearly far simpler to set up then the RB and Albon is a driver who has been a tad unlucky with some decisions he, the team and the officials have made.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Clearly Alex missed a great opportunity to build on his Mugello podium. He never seemed to get much out of the car all weekend.

However, until Horner or Marko actually start to criticise him, he ain't going anywhere!

I think a lot of people are overly harsh anyway. The Alpha Tauri is clearly far simpler to set up then the RB and Albon is a driver who has been a tad unlucky with some decisions he, the team and the officials have made.

lets not forget that for the first part of the season at least, Albon wasnt getting the new parts that Max was getting while they were resolving the cars 'issues'. While it may still not be the case, it has skewed the results a little, and knocked his confidence a bit

[steve nielsen]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

lets not forget that for the first part of the season at least, Albon wasnt getting the new parts that Max was getting while they were resolving the cars 'issues'. While it may still not be the case, it has skewed the results a little, and knocked his confidence a bit

That only happened once or twice when there were back to back race weekends with no time to build those parts for both cars.

In most races Alex had exactly the same parts on his car.

[GT6]

With the fact that Max seems to be able to get the car almost to Mercedes level, Red Bull need to decide if they want to win the manufacturers title they need a better no two driver and they might have to find that away from their usual sources

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

I really don't get all the "the car is designed for Max" talk

if you look at Red Bulls cars, the basic high rake design has been lexactly the same long before Max was there.

as mentioned its for sure a combination, but overall i agree with you. if there is any team driven by one philosophy it's Red Bull and Newey's focus on aerodynamics. the car comes first then the driver imo.

its all data driven of course and Max is the one generating the on track usable data, but the team spend hundreds of millions a year designing a car and cars are evolutions over years of gradual building so at this point RB have literally invested billions into this car and its design philosophy and were doing so before Max got there.

on an institutional level, how much are top teams even capable of designing a car around one driver? set adjustments aside, how willing are they to go down a design path for a driver they cannot even guarantee will be with them in the medium to long run?

add to the fact that RB is also a team which treats its drivers as disposable.

sure they love Max right now but they are also pretty invested in maintaining this drivers crucible in order to find the next 'Max'. rather they are, like all teams, always actively looking for replacements and upgrades.

anyways, Albon might get a pass this year because its covid and stability may count for a bit more this year but based on how RB have acted in the past, i cant see any assertion they make that would suggest that they dont also think Albon is massively underperforming right now and replacement is what they do in these situations.

its their ethos right?

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

With all of the "built around Max" talk, is nobody going to bring up Ricciardo and the team's relative performance? Max is only the man challenging Mercedes this year due to Ferrari collapsing. RBR were able to provide a car that both Ricciardo and Max could win races in when they were teammates. Why would their philosophy shift so dramatically so quickly? It would expose the lack of faith they had in Gasly if so, and thus suggest that he was treated less fairly than Albon. Over 12 months in and the excuses made for Albon look a bit cheap and increasingly hopeless given Gasly's performances. Again, surely the Frenchman is on a high in confidence that makes him that bit more resilient, being a Grand Prix winner, and surely deciding to hire a Grand Prix winner doesn't look so bad for RBR (granted, who knows how Gasly may perform - but the worst won't be any different from Albon). It's looking very silly pretending to have faith in one of the weaker drivers on the grid who's inability to perform ruins any chance of a WCC challenge. Red Bull have nothing to lose making another switch. Who knows, play musical chairs for long enough and either Vips or Tsunoda may prove themselves as worthy anyway by 2023. If not, then Dr Marko himself had better improve!

[Oldtony]

A Covid thought.
What are the complications involved in switching a driver from one bubble to another in the current team quarantine arrangements.
Is that a bar to Red bull reversing the Albon - Gasly arrangements?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

A Covid thought.
What are the complications involved in switching a driver from one bubble to another in the current team quarantine arrangements.
Is that a bar to Red bull reversing the Albon - Gasly arrangements?

I think teams are required to operate with at least one bubble, but can create sub-bubbles (such as one for each driver), or even more. I think they have already had staff come/go so there probably is existing rules for how to enter a pre-existing bubble. My guess at least a week quarantine plus existing testing?

Anyhow, I just don't see RBR making any driver changes in their teams before end of season. I think Albon is just up and down. What he is missing is consistency on the top end of his range.

Richard.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

I really don't get all the "the car is designed for Max" talk

ascarracinguk referred to Mika Hakkinen talking about it. Unless there's another podcast I'm unaware of, I hope this gives some insight. 24:00-28:30.

https://soundcloud.com/unibetfinland...on-2019-review

Originally Posted by chillibowl

its all data driven of course and Max is the one generating the on track usable data, but the team spend hundreds of millions a year designing a car and cars are evolutions over years of gradual building so at this point RB have literally invested billions into this car and its design philosophy and were doing so before Max got there.

Yeah, but now Max is there.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

on an institutional level, how much are top teams even capable of designing a car around one driver?

Extremely capable with all the data the gain.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

set adjustments aside, how willing are they to go down a design path for a driver they cannot even guarantee will be with them in the medium to long run?

My presumption is that they compromise themselves if the don't

Originally Posted by chillibowl

add to the fact that RB is also a team which treats its drivers as disposable.[

The disposable drivers are the ones they don't want.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

With all of the "built around Max" talk, is nobody going to bring up Ricciardo and the team's relative performance?

Nope.

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

.Max is only the man challenging Mercedes this year due to Ferrari collapsing. RBR were able to provide a car that both Ricciardo and Max could win races in when they were teammates. Why would their philosophy shift so dramatically so quickly?

Without it being explicitly confirmed. My presumption is that the sway towards RB was occurring while Ricciardo was there (Which contributed to Ricciardo's unreliability in his last season there). He read the situation and preferred to join a weaker team in Renault than stay at RB and be continually diminished.

Also the change in driver allows the opportunity for a greater shift in focus towards Verstappen. Had Ricciardo stayed there, any favouritism would be done with be more apparent and under some kind of tension. With Gasly and subsequently Albon, they don't know any better so wouldn't recognise the shift within the team.

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

It's looking very silly pretending to have faith in one of the weaker drivers on the grid who's inability to perform ruins any chance of a WCC challenge.

Commercially, it's a bigger deal for teams to win the WDC. RB isn't a 1980s Williams team.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by GT6

With the fact that Max seems to be able to get the car almost to Mercedes level, Red Bull need to decide if they want to win the manufacturers title they need a better no two driver and they might have to find that away from their usual sources

Reminds me of 1981, when Brabham ran Piquet to the WDC, but the fact he didn't have a good enough back up cost them any chance of the constructors

[gert]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Reminds me of 1981, when Brabham ran Piquet to the WDC, but the fact he didn't have a good enough back up cost them any chance of the constructors

Or Ligier, same year, where Laffite was a title contender going into the last race and his teammate(s) failed to score a single point all year long: Jarier - Jabouille - Tambay

[S griffin]

As a matter of fact Jarier was the only one who got a race finish in that second car