Following an article in Octane magazine

[simon drabble]

what race cars do you think will be the hot investment this year, Pantera GR4 have been hyped a lot as has Batmobiles but what else? Will GTA's continue their current strength?
Will Historic S2000 take off with the stand alone races?

[Jeremy Hall]

Anyone who knows the answer Simon ain't saying and surely anyone who posts an answer ain't playing for real. However who am I to stand in the way of idle speculation.
That having been said I understand the serious wealth management professionals are advising be out of big money cars by Christmas 2008 latest latest.

[esper]

I hope the last phrase is right,
I will stick to investing to much in my own cars according to "consultants".
Hoping to have as much opossite lock as possible

[simon drabble]

Jeremy I disagree - as with any illiquid investment once you have you position on you need to sing it from the rooftops and let others follow suit!

The interesting debate is really do you think 70's cars will take over from 60's cars, how much sway are Goodwood and Gentlemen drivers in keep the 60's cars at a premium to 70's cars?

There has always been a lot of talk about the 40 year olds dictating values as its all about the cars they wanted as children, however D Types etc still seem very well bid so I guess it doesnt make that much difference!

In terms of timing I think its very difficult to putting an end date to the current boom. There is clearly a lot more real money in this market compared to the late 80's and if you see how wine has also become an accepted alternative investment asset class I think cars will continue to move until such time that a US economic recession occurs. At that point I agree it could get ugly.

[zefarelly]

Wine is a dreadful investment, I just drink it!

70's cars are getting more expensive, I can't see 60's cars getting cheaper

Simon, buy old Rovers! I would say Skodas but theres a guy opposite Shoreham power station with at least 10 outside his house so he's got the market cornered

[Tim the Grey]

Golf GTi is the way forward?
Also, I'd lay down an M3 or 2, were I in the position.
Be AHEAD of the wave, not ON it.

[Jeremy Hall]

Following the recent installation of a new lavatory in my office, my redundant pile of Classic Cars etc is getting one last read before they are disposed of.
From 1973 what we see is that the only car to buy was a Silver Ghost-they were streets ahead of anything else-where are they today,just where they were. Pre war single seaters have gone from top of the market to not the top of the market as the buyers move on to TGP ,Group C etc. So very volatile market, currently very hot for Ferrari with huge anmounts -billions US I know for a fact, of borrowed money.
US market also very big into muscle cars which means nothing over this side of the pond.
The competition car market is driven by the events-Goodwood cars, Monte Carlo cars, Le Mans cars, Tour Auto cars and influence by Masters,TGP and Lurani.
Outside those cars are making/worth less than they cost to build-rally Porsches etc.
I have no feel for the Ferrari silly market at all except to repeat the wealth management comment from earlier which seems to say there may not much more legs in the market, but those of us who watched,I was not a player, in the late eighties know that it creeps up on you, and that a couple of interest rate rises can devastate in lots of areas.
Now the Historic competition market, it has to keep coming forward because excluding the fakers there need to be more cars. However moving into the nineties may be problematic, difficult cars to run-technology etc, lessening public interest-fewer spectators and competitors so less magic etc etc, track time getting costlier so good grids needed and so on.
Questions remain as to the continuing appeal of some of the star meetings, how many GTO's run at Goodwood nowadays.
Lastly there is the green thing, one could paint a picture where ''old car racing'' was the sacrificial lamb thrown to the greensby the powers that be , noisy, smelly, very ungreen so how about modern nice racing carries on but ''old cars'' are restricted to demonstrations and track days;no-one ain't buying then.
Hard calls all round.

[simon drabble]

in a perfect world I would definately buy a 70's car for future growth in addition to my current car. Its an interesting point asto whether its worth taking the gamble of selling a Goodwood car for a 70's one.....

The US and European markets are quite different in so much as American buyers are quite happy to put finance on thier investment cars whereas in Europe we generally dont, this does mean that they are more susceptable to rate hikes and therefore the rally in Muscle cars must look overheated.

Without wishing to gaze too hard into the crystal ball I reckon we are pretty close to teh top of the interest rate cycle so I would not be too concerned by further hikes. I would be more concerned by the US and UK property markets. If they continue to harden so do cars but if they dont......

In respect to the old single seaters I wonder if that is more of a safety issue and a general trend towards GT cars rather than single seaters.

[Cameron Winton]

Has anyone seen the money Mk2 Escort rally cars are going for?

There's a thought

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by Cameron Winton

Has anyone seen the money Mk2 Escort rally cars are going for?

There's a thought

Not really Cameron, they are winners-the new money that comes into Historic Motorsport, mostly, only buys at the front. Trouble is that 90 % of any grid, start line or whatever since the dawn of motoring sport has been utter garbage; so winnners are expensive on the grounds of rarity.

[terence]

As in rarity ,how about the ex works Healey at £250.000

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hall

Trouble is that 90 % of any grid, start line or whatever since the dawn of motoring sport has been utter garbage.

Eh? Am I really reading that? Totally disagree!

[Jeremy Hall]

John :Go look at the pix and grids after the front two rows mostly it was makeweights, no hopers and cars after the start money. What is the opposite of rose-tinted specs?

[TorqueWench]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hall

the new money that comes into Historic Motorsport, mostly, only buys at the front. Trouble is that 90 % of any grid, start line or whatever since the dawn of motoring sport has been utter garbage; so winnners are expensive on the grounds of rarity.

Jeremy - there you are again saying exactly what you think, instead of thinking about it! I suppose it depends on what you call "utter garbage" - does that cover slower, smaller-engined but (as original as possible) cars in the hands of not-very-good drivers - because in that case I could agree. You don't get "a front of the grid" without others there at the middle and back racing, but not all of them are going to be a rare original with a modern Nuvolari on board!

If not, then that's a statement I couldn;t agree with - by the way, do you still have all those NSUs? Was it NSUs?

[john ruston]

At last someone understands these are toys and not investments.The advantage with an Historic car is that if bought correctly it can be sold at the purchace price The 10-50000 pounds it costs per season to run the thing is the cost of the hobby .Mr Hall is correct the majority of the cars on the grid do not expect to compete at the front but as long as the drivers enjoy themselves no problems.Remember very few people know or care who wins races and as its a minority club sport most of us return to our normal lives on Monday's.Simon you should know better 99.9% of the drivers have failed in there bid to become the next big star.Its Sunday morning football!

[esper]

interesting stakes!
single seaters? The new money don't scare their balls in those. and to technical to run?
Silver ghosts? I was at the Hunt House RREC where they told me I was to lower the everage age in the club considerably...........is that an identification on RR Ghost values. Or are RREC members always somewhat older?
250000 for a works Healey. Try to find a cheaper Le Mans car!!!!!!

[TorqueWench]

Sadly Dad sold his Ghost about 15 years ago - should have kept hold!

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by TorqueWench

Jeremy - there you are again saying exactly what you think, instead of thinking about it! I suppose it depends on what you call "utter garbage" - does that cover slower, smaller-engined but (as original as possible) cars in the hands of not-very-good drivers - because in that case I could agree. You don't get "a front of the grid" without others there at the middle and back racing, but not all of them are going to be a rare original with a modern Nuvolari on board!

If not, then that's a statement I couldn;t agree with - by the way, do you still have all those NSUs? Was it NSUs?

No Sarah they were Lancia's and I swapped them for two acres at the back of the house about ten years ago-now there was a good deal!!!
OK, I over egg the pudding but you all remember, no maybe you are younger than I am, cars in long distance racing in the sixties and seventies that were not even clean, Grand Prix racing in the seveties with all those ... I won't go on.
But yes Motor Sport needed them, the world needs maggots.

[TorqueWench]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hall

No Sarah they were Lancia's .

In that case I had better shut up!

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hall

John :Go look at the pix and grids after the front two rows mostly it was makeweights, no hopers and cars after the start money. What is the opposite of rose-tinted specs?

Don't have to look at the pix, since I've been at the circuits watching different levels of motor racing for over 40 years. I really don't know where to start with your statement, so I'll restrict myself simply to saying that because some cars are less competitive, it doesn't make them 'utter garbage'.

Originally Posted by john Ruston

At last someone understands these are toys and not investments.The advantage with an Historic car is that if bought correctly it can be sold at the purchace price The 10-50000 pounds it costs per season to run the thing is the cost of the hobby .Mr Hall is correct the majority of the cars on the grid do not expect to compete at the front but as long as the drivers enjoy themselves no problems.

Absolutely right John, but that doesn't make them 'utter garbage' either.
I'm hoping that Jeremy's description was the grossly exagerrated 'tongue in cheek' comment that I would like it to be.

[john ruston]

Thanks John but quickest way to make a car go faster is to change the driver and buy a new set of tyres.Many of the so called back markers are fast cars being driven slowly.I am only 40sec a lap slower than Gareth Burnett around Spa in the same car.I can live with it,maybe the drivers are rubbish but they dont care as they are aware the front runners are not that good either when compared to the best drivers in moderns

[johnh875]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Absolutely right John, but that doesn't make them 'utter garbage' either.
I'm hoping that Jeremy's description was the grossly exagerrated 'tongue in cheek' comment that I would like it to be.

I think it was a brutal, blunt-as-a-housebrick comment. 90% is arguably a bit high, but you could similarly say that most of today's F1 grid is "utter garbage" because the cars can not & will not win.

Re race car prices I couldn't really give much of an assessment other than I agree with the trend towards newer cars in general, although I think the point will be reached where the complexity of cars or cost of repair/preparation will put them out of reach of most. Eg I know a guy with a relatively recent F1 car (I think it is one of Jacques Villeneuve's BAR cars), it has been cosmetically restored but not to running condition as the cost of the rebuild would be exhorbitant (not to mention the owner couldn't begin to fit in the car let alone drive it, he is more that a foot taller than JV!)

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Thanks John but quickest way to make a car go faster is to change the driver and buy a new set of tyres.Many of the so called back markers are fast cars being driven slowly.I am only 40sec a lap slower than Gareth Burnett around Spa in the same car.I can live with it,maybe the drivers are rubbish but they dont care as they are aware the front runners are not that good either when compared to the best drivers in moderns

John that is a very valid point. I would largely fall into the same catergory as you against either James Shead or has co driven my car or Roger who currently does (but that was last season and it will be different this year!!), however the thread is straying off I think as I am not so interested in a front runner as what people think is going to outperform fiscally. They are normally the same but not always. GTA's have probably outperformed Lotus Cortina's fiscally but I think its fair to say L-C's are still quicker on the track.
Re the 250k for a Le Mans car I can think of several cars but admittedly not from the same era, Group C cars which competed and I saw a Pantera GR4 for sale for less which is really what got me thinking about the whole 60's/70's argument...

[Al Weyman]

Chevy Camaros, definitely Chevy Camaros. :-)

[terence]

Chevy Camaros ! judging by the way a lot of big yanks are selling in the states Al,DONT SELL IT YET