New classes for MSN/MSVR circuit rallies

[andy97]

I see that Motorsport News Circuit Rally championship has announced 2 new classes to encourage the clubman for the 2020/21 season.
One new class is for 4x4 cars with H pattern gearboxes and the other is for non-homologated pre 1980 “historic” cars with OEM engines and H pattern boxes. Further details to be released later.
Sounds good to me, in principle.

http://msnrallychamp.co.uk/2020/05/20/n ... n/#respond

[BertMk2]

The 4wd class makes a lot of sense - there are plenty of Subarus and Evos out there that are never going to be able to keep up with the R5 and WR Cars. I suppose the same is true in the 2wd classes - our Escort has a sequential box and a non-oem engine - so on the one hand we're part of the problem, on the other our car is nowhere near the spec of the top cars in our class. 10 years ago our car would have been a decent spec, now it's well off the pace - we don't have the budget to keep up with the development curve. We could change it to a lesser spec - but again that's more expense and the class structure is only relevant for the MN championship so you'd be further off the pace on other events.

In some respects it's the usual problem - a championship becomes popular so the cheque books come out and the clubmen drop down the order. Using an R5/WRC on a single venue event seems like collosal overkill to me (but I do like seeing them in action ). One of the events we did there was a crew putting on a new set of tyres after every pair of stages (as in 4 brand new tyres every 10 or so miles) - there's no way a clubman competitor can compete with that kind of outlay.

The MSN championship is doing a great job of putting rallying in front of "non-bobble hat" people though and the events we've done have been enjoyable - there also seem to be quite a few "first time drivers" at the events so hopefully they're a way of getting more people into the sport.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

The 4wd class makes a lot of sense - there are plenty of Subarus and Evos out there that are never going to be able to keep up with the R5 and WR Cars. I suppose the same is true in the 2wd classes - our Escort has a sequential box and a non-oem engine - so on the one hand we're part of the problem, on the other our car is nowhere near the spec of the top cars in our class. 10 years ago our car would have been a decent spec, now it's well off the pace - we don't have the budget to keep up with the development curve. We could change it to a lesser spec - but again that's more expense and the class structure is only relevant for the MN championship so you'd be further off the pace on other events.

In some respects it's the usual problem - a championship becomes popular so the cheque books come out and the clubmen drop down the order. Using an R5/WRC on a single venue event seems like collosal overkill to me (but I do like seeing them in action ). One of the events we did there was a crew putting on a new set of tyres after every pair of stages (as in 4 brand new tyres every 10 or so miles) - there's no way a clubman competitor can compete with that kind of outlay.

The MSN championship is doing a great job of putting rallying in front of "non-bobble hat" people though and the events we've done have been enjoyable - there also seem to be quite a few "first time drivers" at the events so hopefully they're a way of getting more people into the sport.

I do applaud them for trying to do something to encourage competitors on more limited budgets (it’s all relative) and I certainly think it is the most accessible form of the sport, usually with good spectator numbers.

As for the competitors chucking tyres at it, then that will always be the way but perhaps they could help the budget conscious by selling on their “used” tyres at cheap prices. Alternatively perhaps the regs could limit tyres either in numbers per competitor or to List 1B or 1C etc as do many club level race series.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by andy97

I do applaud them for trying to do something to encourage competitors on more limited budgets (it’s all relative) and I certainly think it is the most accessible form of the sport, usually with good spectator numbers.

It's certainly doing a good job of raising the profile of rallying - even if there are people that don't see it as 'proper rallying'.

Originally Posted by andy97

As for the competitors chucking tyres at it, then that will always be the way but perhaps they could help the budget conscious by selling on their “used” tyres at cheap prices. Alternatively perhaps the regs could limit tyres either in numbers per competitor or to List 1B or 1C etc as do many club level race series.

You'll get chequebook warriors in whatever series you do, you see these people throwing new tyres on the car every couple of stages whilst we bolt on the least bad ones we've got . People hiring venues for pre-event testing (rather than a short trip down the road and back). At the end of the day it's about having fun for us - we know we can't compete on budget but we know what's a good performance for us and our car so as long as we're doing that and smiling it's all good.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

It's certainly doing a good job of raising the profile of rallying - even if there are people that don't see it as 'proper rallying'.



You'll get chequebook warriors in whatever series you do, you see these people throwing new tyres on the car every couple of stages whilst we bolt on the least bad ones we've got . People hiring venues for pre-event testing (rather than a short trip down the road and back). At the end of the day it's about having fun for us - we know we can't compete on budget but we know what's a good performance for us and our car so as long as we're doing that and smiling it's all good.

Agree with all of that. I am still a novice at this rallying lark (1 shakedown at Curborough, 2 events entered 2 car failures!) but it is definitely about just having fun.

[NaBUru38]

I had never read about this championship.


So they use rallycross sections and surrounding roads?

[andy97]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

I had never read about this championship.


So they use rallycross sections and surrounding roads?

Sort of, it’s usually all on tarmac using the circuit in different configurations with link roads, the pit lane, areas of the paddock etc. Cars run singly as in normal rallying but each stage is usually 2 or 3 “laps” of the stage with splits and merges for different sections of the track to give a stage length of, say, 6-8 miles at somewhere like Donington Park, rather than a race lap of 2.5 miles.
There are chicanes made up from bales and/ or tyres to keep it twisty.
Often stages 3&4 will be the reverse of stages 1&2. There will then be a change in configuration at lunchtime and stages 7&8 will be the reverse of stages 5&6
There are usually 6-10 cars on the stage at any one time.

Some circuit rallies will have short sections of smooth gravel linking tarmac sections and the Oulton Park rally has a water splash.
Hope that all makes sense?

This is video of a circuit rally at Donington Park. Hope you can see the sections of track compared to the linking sections.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bDWVVlZNjGQ

And this one shows a rally at Oulton Park.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dkBjcnrHl0k

The first part shows the cars using Oulton’s low grip “drift circuit” on the infield before joining the main circuit.

[NaBUru38]

Thank you!

[hoffman66]

Being someone who attended quite a few of these allies initially, I then stopped going.

Why? Because they are basically rally sprints, not rallying in what i call its purest terms. I attended Donington, Snett and Brands and Cadwell a few times and although interesting ina basic view and well attended, the events are so dumbed down as to be nothing like a true rally, yes you are timed and there are notes, but there is little of the challenge of say the old Cadwell rallies.

Palmer detests people going on his grass so the stages are often designed with heavy chicane and even sometimes barriers to make a mistake damage your car, you have to run spares and can;t run on flat tyres, Donington initially has a nice little infield section, that was fun, yet that was abandoned for some reason.

I will say Oulton's event looks better, but again the good bits you can't get to over from the start line.

I was simply frustrated in the end watching the same layouts over and over again, and just endless acceleration runs for the drivers from corner to chicane.

It is all we have and for me it saw out the years after the spectator ban on single venues but I feel looking at entries this year a lot of the drivers have had enough and would rather do more road based events as that is real rallying, not this contrived Palmer sprint stuff.

That is the future I hope.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by hoffman66

Palmer detests people going on his grass so the stages are often designed with heavy chicane and even sometimes barriers to make a mistake damage your car, you have to run spares and can;t run on flat tyres,

The chicanes are largely there to keep speeds down - our car maxes out in 6th gear in a couple of places at Brands, without the chicanes we'd be bouncing off the limiter halfway down the straights! When there have been track days for rally cars chicanes have been installed for the same reasons. It's part of the reason we've only been to Rallyday at Castle Combe once - the circuit is too quick for rally cars, we're in 6th and on the limiter most of the way around. Some MOD venues also issue "keep off the grass" instructions - Marham for one they were very keen on reminding us not to cut corners.

Barriers only damage cars if you hit them - obvious but true, forest events have trees all over the place but they're only a problem if you hit them. No difference really - there are things not to hit on every rally, dodging them is half the fun!

Not being allowed to run on flat tyres is also not specific to circuits - there are other venues where we've been told to change the wheel if we get a flat. That's more annoying than the chicanes as you can still shift at a fair old speed on 3 tyres and a rim (going through "The Snake" at Longcross with no front left tyre was an eye opener!). I can understand the reasons though - and the chances of getting a puncture on a circuit event are considerably less than other venues (we've never had a tyre let go on a circuit event - usually lost 1 per event at Longcross).

Originally Posted by hoffman66

I was simply frustrated in the end watching the same layouts over and over again, and just endless acceleration runs for the drivers from corner to chicane.

It is all we have and for me it saw out the years after the spectator ban on single venues but I feel looking at entries this year a lot of the drivers have had enough and would rather do more road based events as that is real rallying, not this contrived Palmer sprint stuff.

That is the future I hope.

I can understand from a spectators point of view it could get repetitive if the spectator areas are limited - the only place I found that to be a problem was at Rockingham (but then that applied to circuit racing there too).

The circuit rallies are good fun and allow the service crew to see the action - often they don't get to see any of it (they have no choice but to believe our tales of exactly how that dent got there ) and they're easy for family and friends to come along and watch us throw the car about. They're also a good way to get people into the sport - there are a few circuit racers that have come and had a go for example. That can only be good for the sport - they're also cheaper than a multi-venue event so are valuable from a clubman point of view.

Closed road events are a different beast - and I'm certainly with you in hoping that we see more of them in the future but I wouldn't say they were 'better' than the circuit events - they're just 'different'. There's a place for all of the event types - hopefully we'll see rallying grow again

[andy97]

Originally Posted by hoffman66

Donington initially has a nice little infield section, that was fun, yet that was abandoned for some reason.

I will say Oulton's event looks better, but again the good bits you can't get to over from the start line.

I was simply frustrated in the end watching the same layouts over and over again, and just endless acceleration runs for the drivers from corner to chicane.

It is all we have and for me it saw out the years after the spectator ban on single venues but I feel looking at entries this year a lot of the drivers have had enough .

Donington has had the infield gravel section re-instated on both of the events I have attended as a spectator in the last 12 months.

Oulton has a gravel section, a low grip handing section and a water splash so hardly a rally sprint. And I am sure that I got to see all of that the last time I was there.

And I think that Snetterton also had a water splash this year for the first time, although I didn’t attend, as well as using many of the internal twisty paddock roads.

The drivers I have spoken to all seem to enjoy it and the entries have been good at every round I have spectated at (Oulton, Snetterton, Donington).

[hoffman66]

I simply dont believe they are proper rallying

They are sprint events that cater for very certain sorts of cars, I remember years ago talking to admittedly rich crews at an airfield moaning about having to adjust their suspension and use different tyres because the surface was not very good, that to me is a part of rallying, not turning up in a hillclimb car setup basically for circuit racing.

it serves a purpose but for me, these events would not exist in the main rally season, they exist to make Palmer and other venues money off season and are designed to impact the venue as little as possible.

They are click bait for the off season a bit like the car shows at the same time. AS I say they serve a purpose and you can see with this raft of changes the people running them are trying to claw back interest.

The closed roads scene is the future, always has been, to bring us in line with the rest of Europe in particular and hopefully these circuit events in my opinion stay off season for people who don't really know much about rallying to watch at, as for fans like me, they are really not worth the effort to watch at anymore.

But as is the case with most club level motorsport these days, the punters are the last people these events, circuits etc think of.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by hoffman66

I simply dont believe they are proper rallying

They are sprint events that cater for very certain sorts of cars, I remember years ago talking to admittedly rich crews at an airfield moaning about having to adjust their suspension and use different tyres because the surface was not very good, that to me is a part of rallying, not turning up in a hillclimb car setup basically for circuit racing.

it serves a purpose but for me, these events would not exist in the main rally season, they exist to make Palmer and other venues money off season and are designed to impact the venue as little as possible.

They are click bait for the off season a bit like the car shows at the same time. AS I say they serve a purpose and you can see with this raft of changes the people running them are trying to claw back interest.

The closed roads scene is the future, always has been, to bring us in line with the rest of Europe in particular and hopefully these circuit events in my opinion stay off season for people who don't really know much about rallying to watch at, as for fans like me, they are really not worth the effort to watch at anymore.

But as is the case with most club level motorsport these days, the punters are the last people these events, circuits etc think of.

I dont think anyone would argue that the events are different to traditional stage rallying but then so are closed roads from a UK point of view.
I think that the closed roads are a fantastic initiative and a great spectacle and all us rally fans want to see more of them but i remain sceptical that there will be as many as people think. I think there could be a great deal of opposition from the environmental lobby and even from residents who dont want any disruption to their lives.
I hope i am wrong but i think those thinking that closed road rallying is a great new dawn maybe sadly mistaken.

[geordiecriag101]

Originally Posted by andy97

Sort of, it’s usually all on tarmac using the circuit in different configurations with link roads, the pit lane, areas of the paddock etc. Cars run singly as in normal rallying but each stage is usually 2 or 3 “laps” of the stage with splits and merges for different sections of the track to give a stage length of, say, 6-8 miles at somewhere like Donington Park, rather than a race lap of 2.5 miles.
There are chicanes made up from bales and/ or tyres to keep it twisty.
Often stages 3&4 will be the reverse of stages 1&2. There will then be a change in configuration at lunchtime and stages 7&8 will be the reverse of stages 5&6
There are usually 6-10 cars on the stage at any one time.

Some circuit rallies will have short sections of smooth gravel linking tarmac sections and the Oulton Park rally has a water splash.
Hope that all makes sense?

This is video of a circuit rally at Donington Park. Hope you can see the sections of track compared to the linking sections.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bDWVVlZNjGQ

And this one shows a rally at Oulton Park.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dkBjcnrHl0k

The first part shows the cars using Oulton’s low grip “drift circuit” on the infield before joining the main circuit.

First thing, cheers for using my vids hope they give a good idea as to what you see. For me, as sumone who can't drive for medical reason, its prity much impossible to get out to the forests to watch a "proper" rally. These SVR's wether stand alone events or part of the MSN Championship are a great thing as it gives you a fairly good taste as to what rallying is all about.

Last year, standing watching Frank Bird throw the Focus around was one of the most impressive things to watch, the sheer speed and control just blew the mind.

OK, this was in a full fat, Ex - factory WRC machine with every toy possible but at the same time, these SVR's, when the conditions are right can throw up a few surprises which let crews who have cars that you would never think could match the top level kit match them or even beat them.

Stand outs for this would be Joe Cunningham in his old 1400 Corsa, easily beating 4wd crews on a regular basis and just as spectacular and entertaining to watch as Bird in his car that cost god knows how many times the price.

As for the events, they are very well run with circuit commentary during the day so you can follow whats going on. Also, it noticeable how many families go, so any events that get not only kids but the other halfs wanting to go back cant be a bad thing.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by geordiecriag101

First thing, cheers for using my vids hope they give a good idea as to what you see. For me, as sumone who can't drive for medical reason, its prity much impossible to get out to the forests to watch a "proper" rally. These SVR's wether stand alone events or part of the MSN Championship are a great thing as it gives you a fairly good taste as to what rallying is all about.

Last year, standing watching Frank Bird throw the Focus around was one of the most impressive things to watch, the sheer speed and control just blew the mind.

OK, this was in a full fat, Ex - factory WRC machine with every toy possible but at the same time, these SVR's, when the conditions are right can throw up a few surprises which let crews who have cars that you would never think could match the top level kit match them or even beat them.

Stand outs for this would be Joe Cunningham in his old 1400 Corsa, easily beating 4wd crews on a regular basis and just as spectacular and entertaining to watch as Bird in his car that cost god knows how many times the price.

As for the events, they are very well run with circuit commentary during the day so you can follow whats going on. Also, it noticeable how many families go, so any events that get not only kids but the other halfs wanting to go back cant be a bad thing.

Apologies for not crediting you for the videos.
I think that it is a very good point about Frank Bird’s performance - anyone who has seen him, and other top runners attacking the chicanes should be in no doubt that these events are not just “acceleration tests”.
Thank you also for pointing out some of the giant killing performances - again, awesome commitment from the crews.