"4 wheels off" - discussion

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by arnage arnie

Sear & Paddock Hill seem to be the 2 main culprits in the UK.

+Copse

[andy97]

Originally Posted by White flag man

Hi Andy,
I understand your frustration and agree with what you've said but, as flag marshal at Sear, on Sunday, we were told, at our briefing, that FWO rule would be relaxed at Sear. I don't know if any of the drivers were told this but, as you say, most of the drivers (99.9%) in every race had FWO on the exit of Sear. As we only had 2 marshals at Sear Out (1 flag, 1 incident) and a phone, it would have made our job virtually impossible to report all this, especially if there had been an incident. I think it's also fair to say that, in most cases, nobody gained an advantage as all the competitors in a race were doing it. If you decided to stick to the rules and and your lap times, quite obviously, compremised for doing so, then I feel very sorry for you. The other thing that shows a lack of consistency is, I believe, drivers were given a "stop/go" penalty for FWO at Russell.
I agree that something needs to be done, either tarmac the run off and extend the corner or put a big curb round the outside, as the have done at the Esses.

Thanks WFM, but we were told that the white line rule applied everywhere!

[numbersix]

http://www.screencast.com/t/ZDNiNWJiM

[sunny.traveller]

Originally Posted by arnage arnie

Sear & Paddock Hill seem to be the 2 main culprits in the UK.

& Graham Hill Bend - particularly the MX5s at on 10th/11th May, almost all of them went FWO at least once, one did it 9 times (but did get a black flag)

[Richard Duvall]

I think Paddock Hill has now been eliminated by narrowing the green bit over the winter. 4 off there now means you've at least 2 in the gravel.

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by White flag man

Hi Andy,
I understand your frustration and agree with what you've said but, as flag marshal at Sear, on Sunday, we were told, at our briefing, that FWO rule would be relaxed at Sear. I don't know if any of the drivers were told this but, as you say, most of the drivers (99.9%) in every race had FWO on the exit of Sear. As we only had 2 marshals at Sear Out (1 flag, 1 incident) and a phone, it would have made our job virtually impossible to report all this, especially if there had been an incident. I think it's also fair to say that, in most cases, nobody gained an advantage as all the competitors in a race were doing it. If you decided to stick to the rules and and your lap times, quite obviously, compremised for doing so, then I feel very sorry for you. The other thing that shows a lack of consistency is, I believe, drivers were given a "stop/go" penalty for FWO at Russell.
I agree that something needs to be done, either tarmac the run off and extend the corner or put a big curb round the outside, as the have done at the Esses.

I agree with Andy that all CSCC competitors were specifically told by the CoC at the pre-race briefing that the rule was "stay between the white lines, and one brave driver (not me) specifically asked about Sear....and it was made very clear that the rule applied there, too.....

For my part, in Future Classics, in the race, I didn't see many people going FWO at Sear....fairly sure I didn't (might have had two off a couple of times) but I do think as I said earlier in the thread that it is overall quicker to be slower in and get the power down earlier.....at least in our case, rear-wheel drive and no LSD.......

[White flag man]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

I agree with Andy that all CSCC competitors were specifically told by the CoC at the pre-race briefing that the rule was "stay between the white lines, and one brave driver (not me) specifically asked about Sear....and it was made very clear that the rule applied there, too.....

For my part, in Future Classics, in the race, I didn't see many people going FWO at Sear....fairly sure I didn't (might have had two off a couple of times) but I do think as I said earlier in the thread that it is overall quicker to be slower in and get the power down earlier.....at least in our case, rear-wheel drive and no LSD.......

Don't think I'm having a go specifically at CSCC competitors about their driving standards, because I'm not, it's an ongoing problem at Sear.
I think the CoC was quite right to say that the FWO rule would be applied at Sear, but it became clear, later, that we didn't have the manpower to enforce this fairly and consistently, but the drivers wouldn't know that. IMO you really need someone with a radio, who is seperate from the marshals, who can just concentrate on this job alone.
In regards to you not seeing many go FWO, I can only say, being diplomatic, that if you are in a race, unless you were a certain Ferrari driver, then you will only see the competitors directly in front of you and not the whole field like we do. Trust me, there were far more did than didn't.

[Nighthawk]

dont we have DSO's. Well i know we had them at castle combe.

[Gerryc]

At Silverstone weekend just gone (17th & 18th) The Arbarths were virtually all going FWO at Becketts virtually every lap in qualifying an race 1 on Saturday - until one of them fell over - the second one to do so in the race, as one had already upended at Stowe! We reported them during qualifying, we reported them during the race. We gave numbers where possible but it would have been much quicker just to say who wasnt!

For race 2 on Sunday a DSO was stationed at Becketts specifically for this purpose. In general the behavior was better, I assume the drivers knew he was there. Anyone who did go FWO once was shown a Black & White, if they went off for a second time they were again shown a Black & White??? No-one went off for a third time, no Blacks were shown. The presence of the DSO and the Black & Whites were both good ideas but I would have preferred a Black to be shown for a second offence reported by the DSO.

[bravo]

So... pit lane entrance at China for the F1... two incidents of 4WO?

[NICK ALLISON]

At a drivers briefing a while back the Clerk of the Course summed it up thus " "the black bits are yours,the green bits are ours ".

[andy97]

Yes, but the trouble is that cliche that doesn't cover Sear (concrete grey!)

[Andy Johns]

Originally Posted by Richard Duvall

I think Paddock Hill has now been eliminated by narrowing the green bit over the winter. 4 off there now means you've at least 2 in the gravel.

Don't you believe it! I was on post 4 last weekend and the BARC Formula Renaults managed it, some every lap, even after black & white was shown to them. I gave up phoning them in as they continued doing it through two practise sessions and two races, so I thought "What's the point"?

[Bodysnatcher]

Does not surprise me Andy, I was'nt going to mention it, since if we did'nt let on that it was possible, perhaps less would be doing it. I agree it's still possible to go 4wo the white lines at Paddock Hill. Less room for error, but it never stopped drivers before. 4wo the kerbs must really be cutting the safety margin to nil.

Poor show by the clerk, if you did your bit and nothing happened to sufficiently modify behaviour.

I was assuming the serious 4wo'ing would'nt really start back up again until the BTCC showed others that it could still be done regularly. Because lets be honest, it's very unlikely that the show will be manipulated by imposing penalties this early in the championship.

(Apologies to the CoC's for BTCC etc that know me, but c'mon, we know how it works..)

[johngee]

For those of you who will be at 750MC at Brands Hatch this coming weekend, we will be applying the rules (the new Blue Book definitions help!) and the drivers and post chiefs will be briefed accordingly.

[deadsquirrel]

Well, I ended up flagging/observing at Copse Exit for the F2's at the weekend.

I asked at the beginning of the day what RC wanted reporting by way of 4-wheels off; they wanted any cars 'offing on more than x occasions in any session/race. [I won't mention what x was as I'm sure some drivers would take 4-wheels off for that number - 1!]

I kept count, it got a bit like bingo at times, but kept me amused and interested So, during the F2 race, I reported a car for infringing on x occasions, and within 30 seconds the car was being black and whited. So, hats off to MSVR for acting against the drivers.

[Roger Lovelock]

Originally Posted by deadsquirrel

Well, I ended up flagging/observing at Copse Exit for the F2's at the weekend.

I asked at the beginning of the day what RC wanted reporting by way of 4-wheels off; they wanted any cars 'offing on more than x occasions in any session/race. [I won't mention what x was as I'm sure some drivers would take 4-wheels off for that number - 1!]

I kept count, it got a bit like bingo at times, but kept me amused and interested So, during the F2 race, I reported a car for infringing on x occasions, and within 30 seconds the car was being black and whited. So, hats off to MSVR for acting against the drivers.

At Club there were also occassions that cars ran wide and after 3 times the offending driver was shown the driving standard flag and they stopped crossing the out field white line. I also noticed that some cars were nearly over the line, but when they were shown the driving standards flag for infringments elsewhere I could see the white line with no car my side of it.
As stated previously Hats off to MSVR.

[SWCRacing]

Originally Posted by Andy Johns

I gave up phoning them in as they continued doing it through two practise sessions and two races, so I thought "What's the point"?

Check the grid for the first Renault race, the perpetrator started with a 10 second delay. Others spent a great deal of time in the Clerks office explaining why they couldn't drive

"Poor show by the clerk, if you did your bit and nothing happened to sufficiently modify behaviour"

A LOT was done to modify the behaviour of the drivers, the trucks were given the news that it had been noticed that they were going 4wo exiting Graham Hill twice in a row, and then getting it right and that one occurrance would not be tolerated.

[aland]

i know at knockhill on sunday any driver putting 4wo on more than 2 occasions got a driving standards flag

[Pretty Vacant]

Was at a very clear and sensible briefing on Sunday and the drivers were told in clear terms what the score was!

Common sense is used and the drivers should know what they've heard.
I for one with my drivers head on am glad this is going to be policed well this year.

But maybe it needs a good example to be set further up the tree from us "clubies" to set it out clearly to all.

As a driver I have faith in the "powers that be" on the day and long may they continue to bring the errant drivers in line, and for that we need the best marshalls in motorsport (Britain!) to keep calling the bad boys in.

And thanks to you all for continuing to do so come rain or shine.

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by SWCRacing

"Poor show by the clerk, if you did your bit and nothing happened to sufficiently modify behaviour"

.

I choose my words carefully on 10ths. What Andy said about the FRs (despite your welcome information about a penalty & visits to the CoC) would appear to indicate that some drivers continued to flout the regulation in the race.

Perhaps if the observer/Post chief received positive feedback/noticed a change he would have continued to report infringements.

[andy97]

I watched the TV coverage of the recent 750mc meeting at Snetterton on the TV last night & most cars were 4WO at Sear. On every lap. Some, way off.

Its clear to me, that the only answer for Sear is to dig up the run off and replace with grass. Trouble is, that I bet that its part of the original runway & therefore feet thick! Alternatively lay "cobbles" on top!!!!!! Something needs to be done.

[terence]

Or they could put in the same kerbing as at The Esse's out?
My suggestion also includes Russell,plenty of photographic evidence from Sundays meeting.Shot of the 'Deterent' at the Esse's,or rather,'Why Its not a good idea to go '4 Off' can be seen on The Masters Thread.