The broad sunlit uplands of next March. Yeah, really. .

[Peter Mallett]

Yes that's correct but as said bmi has been struggling for some time. It has 17 aircraft and 25 routes.

[Mike Bell]

Funny that the Beeb this morning were questioning the reasons for failure. Brexit came first- what a surprise! However, the tame expert interviewed put the record straight. Multiple reasons again..... (Uncertainty being on the list, but by no means a significant reason)

[midgetman]

The expert on 5 Live said they'd been making heavy losses for years, even when Lufthansa sold them in 2011. He blamed a flawed business model and poor management.....no surprise there then.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by grantp

I have a pal who works for an EU offshoot in Germany who tells me his salary is tax free. 6 figures, paid in euros. In terms of the grade scale for the organisation he's somewhere in the middle grades. His job is to run IT projects.

Most "foreign" IT contractors seem to have schemes that avoid them paying a lot of tax but people who are employed by the EU pay tax.
Outfits like Eurocontrol and Nato seem to be tax free and offer benefits like a tax fee car every now and then.

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Yes that's correct but as said bmi has been struggling for some time. It has 17 aircraft and 25 routes.

I was surprised to see that they only employed ±376 people, that didn't seem like a lot?

[midgetman]

That's more staff than customers. TV said they had on average 18 per flight!

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[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

I was surprised to see that they only employed ±376 people, that didn't seem like a lot?

Don't forget that pretty well everything on the ground is outsourced by airlines, nowadays. The check in staff, for example, who possibly wear an airline uniform, will be employed by an outside ground-handling agency. And that agency may or may not be the same one that handles the baggage. So the headline figure may be small, but that may not be the total number of people who find themselves without jobs.



And when you look at airlines like Ryanair, you find out that they don't even employ about half of the pilots that are flying their aircraft full time. In some cases the pilots are "directors" of a an off-the-shelf LLP who offer their services to an agency who in turn supply that service to the airline. HMRC are currently engaged in a blitz on these practices, and some pilots are claiming that HMRC are advising that they may owe up to £170,000 in unpaid tax evasion.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Don't forget that pretty well everything on the ground is outsourced by airlines, nowadays. The check in staff, for example, who possibly wear an airline uniform, will be employed by an outside ground-handling agency. And that agency may or may not be the same one that handles the baggage. So the headline figure may be small, but that may not be the total number of people who find themselves without jobs.



And when you look at airlines like Ryanair, you find out that they don't even employ about half of the pilots that are flying their aircraft full time. In some cases the pilots are "directors" of a an off-the-shelf LLP who offer their services to an agency who in turn supply that service to the airline. HMRC are currently engaged in a blitz on these practices, and some pilots are claiming that HMRC are advising that they may owe up to £170,000 in unpaid tax evasion.

HMRC have, presumably, been taking the returns for years without question though.

It's odd really since unless these people live abroad most of the time or have invested offshore the money they have recycled will be subject to taxers one way or another in most cases.

Against that the larger corporations who have the spending ability and legal capability to embarrass HMRC may well shift money out of the economy as part of their normal business operations. But they seem to be relatively safe from censure.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by grantp

HMRC have, presumably, been taking the returns for years without question though.

It's odd really since unless these people live abroad most of the time or have invested offshore the money they have recycled will be subject to taxers one way or another in most cases.

Against that the larger corporations who have the spending ability and legal capability to embarrass HMRC may well shift money out of the economy as part of their normal business operations. But they seem to be relatively safe from censure.

As usual, HMRC are playing catch up on this wheeze, as well as some others which Ryanair apparently stopped a couple of years ago. One in particular was that Ryanair's outside employment agencies (some of which, possibly all, they actually owned themselves) were paying pilots the minimum statutory hourly rate, but the bulk of the pilots' income was derived from no-repayable tax-free loans from the agencies through which they were employed.

This was also the way that many top-flight football clubs were paying their players, and I knew about that in the late 90s/early 2000s because I was approached to provide financial services for a number of them. I turned down the opportunities as even I knew that it was probably tax evasion.

HMRC are still catching up with that lot, and in fact, their biggest success only came last year when they finally won the case against Rangers in the Superior Court, and that was concerning the loan payments to their players from about 10 or 15 years ago.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

Most "foreign" IT contractors seem to have schemes that avoid them paying a lot of tax but people who are employed by the EU pay tax.
Outfits like Eurocontrol and Nato seem to be tax free and offer benefits like a tax fee car every now and then.

The ECMWF employ 350 staff based at Shinfield near me, and they don't pay income tax either, as they used to proudly say in their job adverts.
I suspect there are several, possibly many, subsidiary organisations under the EU umbrella working a similar scam.

A very quick google says ESA don't pay tax, neither do the OECD.

http://www.thecommentator.com/articl...ypocrisy_award

[Mike Bell]

So, Honda to close Swindon. That is a big blow to the area and the UK manufacturing industry.

Not immediately brexit related, but some factors like the Japan-EU trade deal just signed (no tariffs for Japanese imports), and the uncertain future for the UK must surely have made closing that plant over others a logical decision.

Sad day.

[midgetman]

Yes another blow for north Wiltshire coming on top of Cooper Avon. Honda are also closing the Turkish plant.

Comes back to what I've been saying - the dithering and political shenanigans is killing this country.

Honda have form of course, at the start of the recession they shut down for months and it crucified the local economy.

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[MGDavid]

Honda have been very clear – this decision has been made because of global trends and is not related to Brexit. The Turkey factory will also close as all European market production is being consolidated to Japan.

Be aware that Honda's market share in Europe has halved in the last few years. This is due to a failure of Honda to produce and market the cars that Europe wants, nothing to do with labour, Brexit or anything else.

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Don't forget that pretty well everything on the ground is outsourced by airlines, nowadays. The check in staff, for example, who possibly wear an airline uniform, will be employed by an outside ground-handling agency. And that agency may or may not be the same one that handles the baggage. So the headline figure may be small, but that may not be the total number of people who find themselves without jobs.



And when you look at airlines like Ryanair, you find out that they don't even employ about half of the pilots that are flying their aircraft full time. In some cases the pilots are "directors" of a an off-the-shelf LLP who offer their services to an agency who in turn supply that service to the airline. HMRC are currently engaged in a blitz on these practices, and some pilots are claiming that HMRC are advising that they may owe up to £170,000 in unpaid tax evasion.

Did wonder how much of it would be outsourced, presumably slightly less of a problem for the outsourced workers because they also work for other companies, so might just see their hours reduced.

I had an interesting chat once with some Ryanair pilots, a highlight was the fact they wouldn't fly Ryanair!
Each plane was owned by a separate company which might be normal practice.
The employees were paid in Ireland so the pilots tended to take a large number of cashpoint cards with them when they were flying into Ireland and would collect cash for them!
And so on...

The directors/LLP scheme sounds similar to what the IT people were doing, while they were earning a grand a day they would only pay tax on a rather reduced amount paid into a local company.
Some years ago there was a clampdown/regulation introduced to prevent this which means their numbers and earnings seem to have decreased considerably! Sounds like that is now catching up with pilots.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

Honda have been very clear – this decision has been made because of global trends and is not related to Brexit. The Turkey factory will also close as all European market production is being consolidated to Japan.

Be aware that Honda's market share in Europe has halved in the last few years. This is due to a failure of Honda to produce and market the cars that Europe wants, nothing to do with labour, Brexit or anything else.

Indeed.

http://carsalesbase.com/european-car...a/honda-civic/

If one believes the numbers here Swindon was producing something like 60k cars per annum more than Europe has been consuming in the past decade.


The numbers in the USA are quite unpredictable too.

http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales...a/honda-civic/

Seems to be doing a little better improving its market in China. But the numbers represent those built in China not imports.

http://carsalesbase.com/china-car-sa...a/honda-civic/

Not really a surprise.

Now an enterprising Government would go looking for a vehicle manufacturer of some sort who wanted a factory and an available local work force capable of producing around 100k vehicles p.a.

Perhaps in the EV market space since all sort of inducement could be passed off as reasonable for the purpose of saving the planet.

They have 3 years to get something arranged, so it should be eas....

Hmm. Not a chance of that happening is there?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

Honda have been very clear – this decision has been made because of global trends and is not related to Brexit. The Turkey factory will also close as all European market production is being consolidated to Japan.

Be aware that Honda's market share in Europe has halved in the last few years. This is due to a failure of Honda to produce and market the cars that Europe wants, nothing to do with labour, Brexit or anything else.

I see that, and to be quite honest, in my eyes they make some of the ugliest cars ever! Nothing in their current range I’d go for.

BUT..... In the grander scheme of things, I see a general lack of confidence being shown in the UK by ‘world’ corporations, which in my opinion will lead to a decline in manufacturing per se, and possibly in the financial sector as well. Whatever the outcome of brexit I think the idea of us becoming ‘great’ again by breaking away are wide of the mark......

[bauble]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

So, Honda to close Swindon. That is a big blow to the area and the UK manufacturing industry.

Not immediately brexit related, but some factors like the Japan-EU trade deal just signed (no tariffs for Japanese imports), and the uncertain future for the UK must surely have made closing that plant over others a logical decision.

Sad day.

A matter of opinion, Mike, while sad for the workers, I tend to the view that the UK economy is better off standing in it's own two feet rather then relying on unreliable foreign companies. At the end of the day made in Swindon or not, a Honda is still a Jap car.

Now if Morgan were to take over take factory ……………………….

[VIVA GT]

On the BBC today they referred to Honda as Britain's fifth biggest car manufacturer, which initially sounded impressive, then I started counting in my head 'major manufacturers who build cars in Britain...
I think they could also be referred to as Britain's smallest major car manufacturer!

[grantp]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

On the BBC today they referred to Honda as Britain's fifth biggest car manufacturer, which initially sounded impressive, then I started counting in my head 'major manufacturers who build cars in Britain...
I think they could also be referred to as Britain's smallest major car manufacturer!

Who is left these days?

As I recall Ford only make some engines.

Lotus probably make fewer cars than Morgan.

A lot of JLR stuff is made outside the UK or soon will be. As is normal for the country the Chinese market vehicles are manufactured in conjunction with a local company and are not always the same. In fact it looks like most of the Jag saloons in the Chinese market are long wheelbase versions.

How much of VX manufacturing is left?

That just leaves Toyota and Nissan, right?

I'll exclude the kit builders at Bentley and Rolls Royce.

Have I missed any of note?

Even the Chinese owned Black Cab taxi company has been cutting staff despite the availability of a new, all singing and dancing electric creation (might be expensive) and the attempts of London's mayor to eliminate all diesel engines from his empire.

Judging from reports about Germany almost being in recession at the moment I doubt things are going much better there.

2019/20 could be a very interesting year or two for the world economy with Brexit hardly registering as a blip of influence on any measurement that might be reported.

[Mike Bell]

Personally, I don’t care who owns what, as long as we have investment in manufacturing in this country!

Without a strong manufacturing presence (think we’re world P9 at the mo) the long-term prospects for the country are not good, in my opinion. You can’t prosper with just ‘service industries’- they have to have to manufacturing to ‘service’.....

[Peter Mallett]

I tend to agree with Mike on this. But I look at the Brexit situation as an opportunity to kick our industrial arses back into shape.

On the Honda and indeed Nissan front, I'm not sure if it has been mentioned but there is also the removal of tariffs for Japanese made vehicles by the EU, which is shortly to come into force, hence there is no point in having a satellite manufacturing base in the EU anymore.

Edit: I see Mike picked up the tariff thing...............

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I tend to agree with Mike on this. But I look at the Brexit situation as an opportunity to kick our industrial arses back into shape.

On the Honda and indeed Nissan front, I'm not sure if it has been mentioned but there is also the removal of tariffs for Japanese made vehicles by the EU, which is shortly to come into force, hence there is no point in having a satellite manufacturing base in the EU anymore.

Edit: I see Mike picked up the tariff thing...............

Not as eloquently as you, Peter! That tariff agreement was very recent I believe. Almost as if Honda were waiting for it to be confirmed before making the closure announcement......

[Lancsbreaker]

I'm tolerably certain that Japan didn't sign a trade agreement with the EU just because UK is leaving (maybe) the EU.......and that Honda's decision isn't particularly Brexit related.


It will be a big blow to Swindon, for sure, but there is some time to adapt and plan for alternatives.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Personally, I don’t care who owns what, as long as we have investment in manufacturing in this country!

Without a strong manufacturing presence (think we’re world P9 at the mo) the long-term prospects for the country are not good, in my opinion. You can’t prosper with just ‘service industries’- they have to have to manufacturing to ‘service’.....

I don't think the the Energy market and in particular the low carbon electricity generation plans, absent nuclear as they pretty much will be for some time ahead and possibly much longer than we think, offers hope of any real resurgence in industrialisation in the UK.

The drive to cut CO2 emissions based on changing to electricity generated intermittently by "renewables" sees gas as an interim replacement for coal but if demand can be driven low enough they think they will get away with mostly wind and solar. It's unlikely that such a supply would be able to satisfy the needs of heavy engineering or even the less demanding aspects of re-industrialisation of the UK.

And in a globalised world it's easy enough to move goods around the world so manufacturing in lowest cost locations makes some business sense.

It might not help to save the planet though since cheap usually means poor longevity and so very frequent replacement.

However since the consumers of the world are now used to short life products (and don't seem to see a problem with that so long as they are cheap) I could foresee that any gains made on one side will be lost by short life wastage on the other.

One cannot ignore the scale of the long term potential in China and India, both of them in effect sucking manufacturing out of the rest of the world. Basically the other half of the world.

On the other hand it seems that our half of the world, or at least some of the major policy makers and influencers in it, are intent on moving things to era of no spare energy. Or worse. If it stays that way I doubt manufacturing will ever re-arise to become a major factor any time soon (as they say.)

[Mike Bell]

Obviously the new tariff agreement has been under negotiation for a while. I guess the Japanese would have been pushing for it with or without the UK remaining part of the EU.

I’m hopefully not usually pessimistic, but where are you going to find a manufacturer to take on 3000+ immediate workers in the area? And of course all the UK suppliers to Honda will face difficulties as well.