"Forcing" a yellow

[Asp]

As we know, it we have an incident before a flag point but out of sight of the preceeding point we can "force" a yellow by way of displaying a green (accompanied by whistling if appropriate).

Question to the masses though - how would you show the difference between the need of a waved yellow and a stationary flag?
And then, when it's ok to withdraw their flag, how can you let them know (apart from withdrawing your green, which then causes the issue of cars seeing the yellow and not seeing a green....)?

Is there an acknowledged technique, or is it just a case of trying what you can in the situation?

[The STIG]

In my small experience of flagging, when this has happened I deploy the green, and hope the previous post spots me and the incident.
apart from making the flag as obvious as possible to the other post, there's not much I can see you can do really.

For withdrawing the flag is easy, wave it as you're bringing it in.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Asp

As we know, it we have an incident before a flag point but out of sight of the preceeding point we can "force" a yellow by way of displaying a green (accompanied by whistling if appropriate).

Question to the masses though - how would you show the difference between the need of a waved yellow and a stationary flag?
And then, when it's ok to withdraw their flag, how can you let them know (apart from withdrawing your green, which then causes the issue of cars seeing the yellow and not seeing a green....)?

Is there an acknowledged technique, or is it just a case of trying what you can in the situation?

I assume you are talking about Flag Points without communication.

I have been in this situation many times and my response usually depends on the severity of the "incident". In a few particularly dangerous situations I have actually waved a yellow to get the attention of drivers and the previous flag points attention...quickly changed to green once acknowledged by all.

In all other cases it has been frantic waving, blowing whistles, stepping outside of your safety barrier briefly to jump and down or anything else to get peoples attention.

Bottom line....it is not an exact science....whilst you might strive for perfection often a compromise is the next best thing

[TwoSheds]

Originally Posted by Asp

As we know, it we have an incident before a flag point but out of sight of the preceeding point we can "force" a yellow by way of displaying a green (accompanied by whistling if appropriate).

If this happens then it begs the question, are the flag points in the right places? If a flag point can't see all the sector it is supposed to be covering then surely it's in the wrong place and should be moved, or maybe a new point should be added between the two current points.

As for the original question, if this is a known problem, then before practise or racing starts then I have gone and spoken with the flaggies on the previous post to arrange some form of communications (f.ex. whistles, hand signals, etc.) to help with this.

[stevebrown]

I believe there is a rule that says you can wave a green to notify the preceeding post to wave the yellow, then go to stationary once it is out. I'm sure its in one of the marshal handbooks. I have seen this at Brands when a car came off on the inside of Graham Hill Bend, before post 7 but out of sight of post 6.

Steve B

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by stevebrown

I believe there is a rule that says you can wave a green to notify the preceeding post to wave the yellow, then go to stationary once it is out. I'm sure its in one of the marshal handbooks.

It's an unwritten rule - more of an "Understanding" between flaggies!

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by TwoSheds

If this happens then it begs the question, are the flag points in the right places? If a flag point can't see all the sector it is supposed to be covering then surely it's in the wrong place and should be moved, or maybe a new point should be added between the two current points.

As for the original question, if this is a known problem, then before practise or racing starts then I have gone and spoken with the flaggies on the previous post to arrange some form of communications (f.ex. whistles, hand signals, etc.) to help with this.

Two...ya gotta realise that just like drivers in a pack it can also get very very busy on a Flag Point. For instance, there can be mulitple incidents occupying the attention of the "up stream" point leaving the following point to deal with an additional incident that normally would be covered by the preceding point.

You have to understand that the people on the bank are often being yelled at to provide this and that because there might be a Stewards hearing or some other discussion on an incident in Race Control...WHILST....all hell is developing all around them There is also the question of PRIORITY...if there is a stalled car, dangerous place, driver facing traffic...that tends to take priority (so a missed Blue Flag or somesuch might occur!!).

Just pointing out that it ain't always as simple as it looks

[GordonG]

On previous threads there has been conversation about drivers passing yellows and never seeing the green, and there has been the implication (or statement in a few cases) that drivers should NEVER resume racing till they pass the green.

Well, the cases here are an example of where a driver is going to pass the yellow but not the green - the yellow will be still being waved as the green comes in.

Just a wee side point, and i recognise that it's not an ideal situation and that this is the best that can be done - but it reinforces my view as a driver that if I'm under yellow and I pass a flag point where there are no flags then I'm back to racing as I almost certainly missed the green. This assumes, of course, that I either know where the flag points are or can see an "inactive" flag point (ie a set of orange overalls holding or standing alongside 1 or more furled flags), and there's not an obvious reason for a yellow further down the track).

G

[CombeMarshal]

I had a Simular thing at Brands, Post 9, A car went off just going on to the GP loop, out of sight of me, but before post 10!
The Flaggie put the Green Out, I promptly waved my Yellow with 'Flourish'!!
The only problem was bringing it in as the green has to stay out longer!

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Asp

As we know, it we have an incident before a flag point but out of sight of the preceding point . . .

Sorry? One of the definitions for the siting of flag posts and the granting of a track licence is that this cannot happen.

Or have I been missing something?

Regards

Jim

[JimW]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

I assume you are talking about Flag Points without communication.

. . .

Yes, you are correct, this is being raised in a UK context. No flag points have communicatioin with anywhere else.

Regards

Jim

[CombeMarshal]

Originally Posted by JimW

Sorry? One of the definitions for the siting of flag posts and the granting of a track licence is that this cannot happen.

Or have I been missing something?

Regards

Jim

Yes it can!

[Asp]

Originally Posted by JimW

Sorry? One of the definitions for the siting of flag posts and the granting of a track licence is that this cannot happen.

Or have I been missing something?

I'm prepared to be proved wrong, but I always though the requirement was that there is visibility between flag points. I'm not sure it's possible to ensure there's never a blind spot - as long as one point sees it if an incident ends up there someone can go and sort it.

Originally Posted by stevebrown

I believe there is a rule that says you can wave a green to notify the preceeding post to wave the yellow, then go to stationary once it is out.

Sounds fair enough - of course it does raise the issue of how you then communicate to downgrade (to whatever may be required)...

Chigley is completely right, the ideal solution is to figure that out before practice starts. Only problem is it relies on me getting to post in enough time to figure out there's a problem (if a new post) and then go and chat to the other flaggie.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Asp

I'm prepared to be proved wrong, but I always though the requirement was that there is visibility between flag points. I'm not sure it's possible to ensure there's never a blind spot - as long as one point sees it if an incident ends up there someone can go and sort it.. . .

The Blue Book says: D.10. MARSHALS’ POSTS (RACE AND
SPEED EVENTS)

Officials’ posts with fire, rescue and track cleaning equipment, must be established at corners and at such other points as will ensure the whole of the course being kept under observation at all times and enable officials
to reach the scene of an incident within 30 seconds of its occurrence. Posts must be visible from the preceding post. . . (my emphasis - Jim)

Now unless you are going to get all legal (and that's my trick sometimes even though INAL) I would argue that this means that all of the functions of "track observation" which must include observers to report incidents and flag marshals to display the appropriate flag signals, must be capable of being carried out by those officials appointed to carry out relevant duties.

So; who can give convincing examples of places where the track between one flag point and the next is not under observation by the first flag marshal?

We can then arrange for that situation to be passed on to the MSA for their consideration.

Regards

Jim

[JimW]

Originally Posted by CombeMarshal

Yes it can!

Where and which posts?

Jim

[Asp]

"will ensure the whole of the course being kept under observation at all times"
I'm sure this is always the case - but not necessarily just by the previous flag point.
Indeed, the idea of "forcing" a yellow is proof that that the course is always visible - just by the next flag point. I think most of posts where the entire sector isn't completely visible by the preceeding flag point, the "blind spot" is near the following flag point, and indeed in it's "sector" as regards observing and incident requirements.

I also think that this regulation doesn't intend for every sector to be visible by two flaggies (before and after) - due to the second part "Posts must be visible from the preceding post". If the first part was due to add a requirement for a flag marshals to see all of the area up to this post, this part would be redundant. And, if it was to serve of clarification, it does only state the the post is visible from the preceding point - not the entire sector.

Well, you asked me to get legal

[CombeMarshal]

Originally Posted by JimW

Where and which posts?

Jim

Post 9 to ten on the GP circuit at brands, happened to me on the F3 meet.

It says a whole track must be observed, well marshals tend to spread them selves out between posts, so the Ciruit marshals may cover blind spots.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Asp

"will ensure the whole of the course being kept under observation at all times"
I'm sure this is always the case - but not necessarily just by the previous flag point.
Indeed, the idea of "forcing" a yellow is proof that that the course is always visible - just by the next flag point. I think most of posts where the entire sector isn't completely visible by the preceding flag point, the "blind spot" is near the following flag point, and indeed in it's "sector" as regards observing and incident requirements.

I also think that this regulation doesn't intend for every sector to be visible by two flaggies (before and after) - due to the second part "Posts must be visible from the preceding post". If the first part was due to add a requirement for a flag marshals to see all of the area up to this post, this part would be redundant. And, if it was to serve of clarification, it does only state the the post is visible from the preceding point - not the entire sector.

Well, you asked me to get legal

Neat argument but I think I would come back by saying that it is implicit that the "observation" must be able to do something defined within the powers of the person tasked with doing the "observation". And I don't see any place in the regs for the display of a green to force (or even suggest) the display of a preceding yellow.

So I rule this out.

So far one nomination of a poorly sited flag post - any more?

Regards

Jim

[b1ackcr0w]

Two little points, to the best of my recollection, I can only recall a green being used to force a yellow once, which leads me to my next point.

The provision for a green forcing a yellow is in there mainly to cover the sort of incidents "that you wouldn't have thought possible, untill you actually saw it happen"! It falls into the catagory of "the art of the flaggie". And, as somebody who not to keen on flagging, it one of the reasons why I'm very respectful and grateful for people who are good at it. One thing i've observed about good flaggies, is the have an honest view of their own fallibility. The best ones seem to be of the opinion that their next mistake is only round the corner, and are on the lookout for ways around it. I've seen it a few times where the whole team has been yards away from a fairly big incident, but somehow, we all missed it. But in most of those cases the flaggie has been the one who piped up, admitted the fault and alerted the rest of the team to the problem.

My point is, if you want to be a good flaggie, having the sort of mind where you can quickly accept your mistakes (as sometimes pointed out by an erroneous green flag) is a big part of it.

[Asp]

Mr Cr0w has a point there...

When I was at Anglesey earlier this year on Post 6 (Douglas) I saw post 7 displaying a green. As I picked up the yellow, slightly perplexed as I couldn't figure out where this car could be, a mini appeared (recovering from a spin) over the brow of a slight rise on the inside of the main straight.

I'd flagged there before, but never considered that the crest was big enough to "hide" a car (unless it was past post 7 for their yellow).

I'm not however citing Post 6 as in a bad position - it's in a very good position for drivers to see the flags. Plus, I'm not sure (given pit lane entrance) another flag point could be added in to see behind the crest.
Not that this will be a problem again!

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Asp

I'm not however citing Post 6 as in a bad position - it's in a very good position for drivers to see the flags. Plus, I'm not sure (given pit lane entrance) another flag point could be added in to see behind the crest.
Not that this will be a problem again!

Not much point now Aspy!

[Grandslammer]

Two flag points at Silverstone that can suffer imo a restricted field of view are Copse in(post 2),the infield section just before the out flag point is lost behind the barrier and debris fencing.
Same reasons affects the Maggotts/Becketts flag point (post 5),if a car is tight up against the barrier,one has to rely on the apex flag point for instruction

[Red Bladder]

At Donington, two glaring examples:

Post 1 can't easily see 39 unless you lean right out, but priority is always to look at post 2 to cover a waved yellow.

Post 9 from 7 since 7 is often difficult to see from 9 unless you use binoculars. They (7) also can't tell if a waved or stationary should be given. This was very real at the LEMS meeting since a camera point was built right next to the post (7).

[Mark Mitchell]

The problem with Post 39 at Donny is that due to the location of flag point in relation to where cars are coming from, post 1 will only ever see the end of post 39's flag stick!

[Red Bladder]

Agreed Mark, but is also not helped by ES marshalls standing on the wall. Being 'right under' race control, it can also be very embarrissing to 'miss' their (post 1) flag!