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Old 30 Oct 2016, 01:21 (Ref:3683926)   #211
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German TV has just talked about this, confirming Castrol/BP to McLaren and ExxonMobil moving over to RedBull. I doubt we'll get an official confirmation from McLaren before the end of the season though. Is RedBull connected to another oil company at the moment? They lost Total when they dropped the Renault name IIRC?


Max Mexico 2016.

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Old 30 Oct 2016, 05:30 (Ref:3683962)   #212
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Max Mexico 2016.
Ok thanks, It's on there quite a lot
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Old 21 Nov 2016, 17:31 (Ref:3689999)   #213
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McLaren have appointed Zak Brown as its new executive director but still have to appoint a new chairman.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mc...rector-852419/

So can we expect to see plenty of positive spin on McLaren in Autosport, F1 Racing and Motorsport.com then?
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Old 21 Nov 2016, 18:13 (Ref:3690007)   #214
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McLaren have appointed Zak Brown as its new executive director but still have to appoint a new chairman.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mc...rector-852419/

So can we expect to see plenty of positive spin on McLaren in Autosport, F1 Racing and Motorsport.com then?
Here's Autosport's take on it.

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/127214
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Old 9 Jan 2017, 08:53 (Ref:3701208)   #215
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Honda appear to be adopting a Mercedes type turbine/compressor arrangement for their new power unit.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ho...ressor-864024/

I wonder will that mean a major step forward in their performance time will tell.
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Old 9 Jan 2017, 17:13 (Ref:3701334)   #216
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so a further move away from RD and the size zero philosophy which the team and Honda have had many many problems with.

given that the design work must have been done many moths ago, i wonder if this new direction factors into any of the board room issues surrounding the team over the past year?

if it works does that put them them back in the mix or just equal to where Merc were in 2014 when the new engine formula started?
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Old 9 Jan 2017, 18:51 (Ref:3701367)   #217
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so a further move away from RD and the size zero philosophy which the team and Honda have had many many problems with.

given that the design work must have been done many moths ago, i wonder if this new direction factors into any of the board room issues surrounding the team over the past year?

if it works does that put them them back in the mix or just equal to where Merc were in 2014 when the new engine formula started?
All good points.

I am of the opinion that the size zero concept was the root of the problems. I made the point months ago in a post that this is the benefit of an all in one team like Mercedes. That there is less of the customer/provider relationship. That pushback on bad ideas work better within a team atmosphere. I could be off the mark, but I can envision McLaren pushing Honda in the direction of the size zero design and that negatives of that solution could have been suppressed to maintain the happiness of the relationship.

Clearly the honeymoon phase is over and they know it didn't work. Time to face reality, come up with a new plan and then move forward. It hard to say how much the shakeup within McLaren is part of this. I suspect the shakeup within McLaren is just part of the aftermath of how things have been going.

Regardless, it sounds like they are more on-track now than before. Hopefully they will not be too far behind now.

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Old 10 Jan 2017, 01:20 (Ref:3701478)   #218
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All good points.

I am of the opinion that the size zero concept was the root of the problems. I made the point months ago in a post that this is the benefit of an all in one team like Mercedes. That there is less of the customer/provider relationship. That pushback on bad ideas work better within a team atmosphere. I could be off the mark, but I can envision McLaren pushing Honda in the direction of the size zero design and that negatives of that solution could have been suppressed to maintain the happiness of the relationship.

Clearly the honeymoon phase is over and they know it didn't work. Time to face reality, come up with a new plan and then move forward. It hard to say how much the shakeup within McLaren is part of this. I suspect the shakeup within McLaren is just part of the aftermath of how things have been going.

Regardless, it sounds like they are more on-track now than before. Hopefully they will not be too far behind now.

Richard
Do you think Mr Newey & his RBR design team are working at Size Zero?
Suspect that they are...
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Old 10 Jan 2017, 08:37 (Ref:3701545)   #219
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Do you think Mr Newey & his RBR design team are working at Size Zero?
Suspect that they are...
Off hand I can't remember how Renault has their turbo setup, but I believe it was nothing as radical as Honda tried. So no.. they are probably not working with a "size zero" power unit. Remember, by definition Mercedes isn't either.

I also think RBR and Renault is a relationship at the other end of the spectrum. In that RBR likely pushed Renault as hard as anyone, but Renault was unable to respond (combo of maybe stubborn plus a token system that prevented quick change) .

If would be very interesting to see how things would work out if RBR where to try to develop their own engine. Would they push the engine design team around (and potentially into bad corners such as a size zero design), or would they be an equal partner with the aero team and be able to stand their ground when needed? We will likely never know.

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Old 10 Jan 2017, 08:50 (Ref:3701550)   #220
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Peeps seem to have such short memories, or maybe elect to ignore past facts.

At the beginning of this new era, it was the Red Bulls that had the most problems with the Renault power-units, and it was pretty well acknowledged by all and sundry that a large proportion of their problems were attributed to the cramped space that Adrian Newey and his gang had left the Regie into which to stuff their unit.
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Old 10 Jan 2017, 09:52 (Ref:3701563)   #221
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All good points.

I am of the opinion that the size zero concept was the root of the problems. I made the point months ago in a post that this is the benefit of an all in one team like Mercedes. That there is less of the customer/provider relationship. That pushback on bad ideas work better within a team atmosphere. I could be off the mark, but I can envision McLaren pushing Honda in the direction of the size zero design and that negatives of that solution could have been suppressed to maintain the happiness of the relationship.

Clearly the honeymoon phase is over and they know it didn't work. Time to face reality, come up with a new plan and then move forward. It hard to say how much the shakeup within McLaren is part of this. I suspect the shakeup within McLaren is just part of the aftermath of how things have been going.

Regardless, it sounds like they are more on-track now than before. Hopefully they will not be too far behind now.

Richard
Totally agree......dont forget McLaren ran the Mercedes engine in 2014, and they should be shot for not realizing the mercedes turbo packaging was a big powertrain benefit, but no, McLaren who know nothing about engines (this is why they need Ricardo on the road car side) pushed honda into the dopey axial flow exhaust turbine which had the efficiency of a an ant running a marathon, its easy to blame Honda, but it was actually Mclaren that pushed them to do it through the dopey size-zero packaging route for the best possible aerodynamics, for sure aero is important, but they just took it way too far and paid the price with 2 awful seasons in F1.......McLaren need to sort their own act out before they release press statements saying "we would have been the best with the best engine"......Mclaren made the bed, then need to sleep in it.

It would not surprise me to see the 2017 Mclaren-Honda package be an absolute flier......Honda will probably also have implemented Turbulent Jet Injection and also realize another significant performance gain, just like Renault and Ferrari did, after they realized Mercedes had it since 2014!
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Old 10 Jan 2017, 15:29 (Ref:3701619)   #222
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Originally Posted by Mike Harte View Post
At the beginning of this new era, it was the Red Bulls that had the most problems with the Renault power-units, and it was pretty well acknowledged by all and sundry that a large proportion of their problems were attributed to the cramped space that Adrian Newey and his gang had left the Regie into which to stuff their unit.
though it must be said, with a handful of wins and a much better overall record compared to Mclaren, RB and Renault have done a much better job at making it work (and in a much faster time frame as well) without having to drop the tight rear/size zero packaging concept.

on the surface (and in hindsight) it does look like RB's very public tantrums and chastising of Renault has done more to push the team/partnership forward then the reserved/behind closed doors approach that Mclaren had taken (thinking back to one of the talking points in the 'whats wrong with RB' thread from a year ago)
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Old 10 Jan 2017, 23:37 (Ref:3701702)   #223
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Originally Posted by Mike Harte View Post
Peeps seem to have such short memories, or maybe elect to ignore past facts.

At the beginning of this new era, it was the Red Bulls that had the most problems with the Renault power-units, and it was pretty well acknowledged by all and sundry that a large proportion of their problems were attributed to the cramped space that Adrian Newey and his gang had left the Regie into which to stuff their unit.
If you are speaking of me, it is likely short memory. I do remember now problems with cooling due to pushing the limits with the Renault power unit. The question (for me) is did RBR drive the initial design of the Renault power unit (to make it smaller)? It could very well be the fact and I just can't remember the details.

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Old 11 Jan 2017, 01:29 (Ref:3701713)   #224
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All good points.

I am of the opinion that the size zero concept was the root of the problems. I made the point months ago in a post that this is the benefit of an all in one team like Mercedes. That there is less of the customer/provider relationship. That pushback on bad ideas work better within a team atmosphere. I could be off the mark, but I can envision McLaren pushing Honda in the direction of the size zero design and that negatives of that solution could have been suppressed to maintain the happiness of the relationship.

Clearly the honeymoon phase is over and they know it didn't work. Time to face reality, come up with a new plan and then move forward. It hard to say how much the shakeup within McLaren is part of this. I suspect the shakeup within McLaren is just part of the aftermath of how things have been going.

Regardless, it sounds like they are more on-track now than before. Hopefully they will not be too far behind now.

Richard
Their main bottleneck was clearly the compressor. In 2015 they had problems with compressor stall, in 2016 they improved a lot, particularly in energy harvesting at the expense of some engine power. By Silverstone they had regained that power, and the Spa upgrade improved fuel efficiency.

They did not implement a TJI system like Ferrari. From what I've heard, the layout they pick will be "surprising", and to think of it as not so much revolutionary but "highly refined"

If I had to guess what that means is they either keep their current layout, or change the compressor and move it forward.

Implementing TJI would not have been feasible in 2016 because there were not enough tokens to implement all the supporting mods that are needed to make the concept work.

For 2017 they'll be making a very nice step forward, mostly in terms of a broader power band, and fuel efficiency. Will it be enough, that depends on Mclaren's chassis, the aero is good, but mechanical suspension is far behind Red Bull and Mercedes. Then again, since Monaco, it's believed McLaren abandoned developing the chassis for this year, and any upgrades were really just tests to determine the direction for next year.

The slotted end plates and front wing without the "outwash tunnel" were tests to determine drag with these concepts.

I'll be disappointed if they're not at least 4th fastest. And be pleasantly surprised if they can get on the podium. Getting on the podium and then challenging in 2018 for something serious.
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Old 11 Jan 2017, 01:33 (Ref:3701714)   #225
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Totally agree......dont forget McLaren ran the Mercedes engine in 2014, and they should be shot for not realizing the mercedes turbo packaging was a big powertrain benefit, but no, McLaren who know nothing about engines (this is why they need Ricardo on the road car side) pushed honda into the dopey axial flow exhaust turbine which had the efficiency of a an ant running a marathon, its easy to blame Honda, but it was actually Mclaren that pushed them to do it through the dopey size-zero packaging route for the best possible aerodynamics, for sure aero is important, but they just took it way too far and paid the price with 2 awful seasons in F1.......McLaren need to sort their own act out before they release press statements saying "we would have been the best with the best engine"......Mclaren made the bed, then need to sleep in it.

It would not surprise me to see the 2017 Mclaren-Honda package be an absolute flier......Honda will probably also have implemented Turbulent Jet Injection and also realize another significant performance gain, just like Renault and Ferrari did, after they realized Mercedes had it since 2014!
The mixed axial centrifugal compressor is very compact and efficient, and if they had a little more space to make it the size they want(could just be better intake packaging) it could deliver enough boost pressure. Their harvesting is already at a good level, the next step is implementing their version of TJI/CVCC or whatever they're doing, but Honda likes doing things their own way, so they could be doing something completely different.
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