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Old 24 Mar 2017, 10:27 (Ref:3721126)   #271
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knighty should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridknighty should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
A very good report on Hondas situation by Joe Saward......lightweight components = low stiffness = vey low natural frequency = severe vibrations within the working rpm range of the motor.......I'm betting Honda built a super lightweight crankshaft, probably formed by laser-sintering, so could be wafer thin wall section, but subsequently very flexible = vibrations

https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2017/03/17/lets-be-sensible-about-honda/

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Old 24 Mar 2017, 11:06 (Ref:3721135)   #272
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Honda F1 chief Yusuke Hasegawa has apparently just announced that Honda are now working on yet another new engine!
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Old 24 Mar 2017, 11:08 (Ref:3721137)   #273
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Honda F1 chief Yusuke Hasegawa has apparently just announced that Honda are now working on yet another new engine!
Oh blimey!
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Old 24 Mar 2017, 12:09 (Ref:3721156)   #274
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Oh blimey!
lets be honest, what else could they have been working on!......also McLaren have more to lose than gain by driopping honda, we are talking hundreds of millions of lost revenue if they ditch Honda, which could easily bankrupt McLaren as a company, hence its worth fixing
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Old 24 Mar 2017, 13:19 (Ref:3721184)   #275
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Honda F1 chief Yusuke Hasegawa has apparently just announced that Honda are now working on yet another new engine!
Well, the way you say that it sounds as if they just dumped what they have now in the trash and are starting with a blank sheet all over again!

Assuming we are looking at the same articles, they are going to be releasing a revised version of this engine somewhere around Monaco. And, IMHO that is pretty much to be expected. You have a series of fly away races in which McLaren is generally stuck with the current spec (+/-). I would actually be shocked if a revision wasn't arriving around that time (or earlier if Honda is able to make it happen that fast). This is actually good news. So no need to invent additional drama.

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A very good report on Hondas situation by Joe Saward......lightweight components = low stiffness = vey low natural frequency = severe vibrations within the working rpm range of the motor.......I'm betting Honda built a super lightweight crankshaft, probably formed by laser-sintering, so could be wafer thin wall section, but subsequently very flexible = vibrations

https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2017...e-about-honda/

.
The regulations fix some dimensions of the crank such as main and rod journal diameters (actually sets minimum sizes). So I believe that attempts to prevent small cranks, but doesn't require them to be solid. I have read elsewhere about the potential for a hollow crank to reduce weight.

I have also read speculation about a different firing order and/or aggressive cylinder deactivation (run as V4 at times) causing problems. I wonder if part of this revision is to a different firing order (new crank and cam much like Porsche had to do with their LMP1 v4 after vibration issues when the engine was in the car for the first time) and I have heard that maybe the cylinder deactivation can be mostly solved (or reduced) by mapping changes.

Lastly, while Joe Saward gets on my nerves at times, that article is a healthy dose of reality. Especially around the implications of McLaren dumping Honda during 2017 season (highly unlikely). That is exactly the reasons I predicted in the time capsule thread that they would remain partners for 2017.

I tend to believe Honda will get this right, but the question is how deep into the season will it take. Even now, we are seeing McLaren run FP1 and FP2 without the types of failures they had in pre-season testing. Granted, they are likely restricted by specific boundaries (lower revs, etc.) that will limit performance. I expect the immediate goal (using the engines they have at the moment) is to get laps and ensure the cars finish races. The first race or two may be nothing more than extended test sessions for McLaren to make up for lost time.

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Old 24 Mar 2017, 23:21 (Ref:3721296)   #276
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lets be honest, what else could they have been working on!......also McLaren have more to lose than gain by driopping honda, we are talking hundreds of millions of lost revenue if they ditch Honda, which could easily bankrupt McLaren as a company, hence its worth fixing
There is nowhere for McLaren to go, this says it all really, no works engine, no chance:

Since the new 1.6-litre V6 Formula 1 engine rules began we have seen Mercedes win 51 of the 59 Grands Prix. Its customers have won 0 victories. Even when the Mercedes team has messed up, others have beaten the customer Mercedes teams.


Also I feel pushes the point that the engines should all be homologated, and the works should not be allowed to run anything in a different spec from their customers.

Last edited by wnut; 24 Mar 2017 at 23:31.
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Old 25 Mar 2017, 04:26 (Ref:3721337)   #277
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With the exception of the special year old Ferrari deal they can't.

Mercedes have been better than most in engine parity with customers even before the current regs.
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Old 25 Mar 2017, 06:54 (Ref:3721359)   #278
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Honda F1 chief Yusuke Hasegawa has apparently just announced that Honda are now working on yet another new engine!
I bet the one in my Accord could last a whole grand prix.
I also bet the one in the back of the McLarens this weekend may not.

Wonder how much the team might buy my car for?
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Old 25 Mar 2017, 09:23 (Ref:3721382)   #279
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I bet the one in my Accord could last a whole grand prix.
I also bet the one in the back of the McLarens this weekend may not.

Wonder how much the team might buy my car for?
Is it a V6 Accord? Maybe a quick engine swap overnight and hope the FIA don't notice.

Oh, and careful with the jokes GTR. The glum and depressed will point out that that it just isn't funny.
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Old 25 Mar 2017, 20:57 (Ref:3721498)   #280
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Is it a V6 Accord? Maybe a quick engine swap overnight and hope the FIA don't notice.

Oh, and careful with the jokes GTR. The glum and depressed will point out that that it just isn't funny.
It is only funny to cover up how horribly sad it actually is.

We are back to watching Earth Dreams again..

Does it *really* make sense for Honda to throw a lazy E500 million down the throat of the F1 program when it goes this bad?

They should take a customer LMP2 chassis to Japan, fit their latest (lack of) powerplant and flog the living daylights out of it on one of their racetracks til it gets blessed with some performance & driveability & reliability...

This cannot go on...
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Old 25 Mar 2017, 23:52 (Ref:3721512)   #281
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I just cannot understand how these water leaks, vibration issues, part breakages etc. are not picked up earlier?? We are talking of Honda Racing Japan here, not Mr Miyagi's Race Engines down the road.

Surely Honda Racing in Japan has a 7 post chassis/engine dyno that they could simulate hours of engine running combined with chassis movements. Surely they must have. Honda could program a engine killer track like Spa and simulate the chassis movements with engine parameters to get as close to real life data as possible. This can be done for hours/days on end as there are no restrictions on engine testing on chassis dyno's. They don't really have to have a test mule for the track as today's simulation technology is very accurate.

If they are doing the above (which I'm sure they are), combined with all the resources available to Honda Racing, and are still having reliability issues after 3 years (which they certainly are), then sorry to say, Honda are just pathetic, and need to pack up and leave the sport. Harsh? Probably. But just think about this. Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari had less time to build their V6T's than Honda did with their first V6T engine concept. Contrary to what's been widely reported, Honda did not start on their engine design in 2014.

Honda has been in and out of F1 a few times now. They have a proven track record of being unable to commit to F1 long term. And this time around will be no different. Once they look at how much money has been poured into this latest F1 venture, the next new CEO, who is not a F1 fan, will pull the plug once again in a few years time (or even sooner).
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Old 26 Mar 2017, 00:04 (Ref:3721513)   #282
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mikuni should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridmikuni should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I'm not sure how much you can read into these (link below) - L Stroll being at the top leads to a few questions (braking far too late?) - however I still find it interesting.

From this it appears McLaren are not in such a bad position (which is backed up by Alonso qualifying in 13th, however I think that was more attrition of other cars/drivers). McLaren are only about 10km/h down at vmax and on par with Ferraris 2016 PU, which isn't all that bad considering they are still technically a year behind in the development timeline. Law of diminishing returns should have them close by the end of the season, providing they can get their reliability sorted.

http://www.fia.com/file/54531/download?token=PPrtPc2p
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Old 26 Mar 2017, 00:38 (Ref:3721518)   #283
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Surely Honda Racing in Japan has a 7 post chassis/engine dyno that they could simulate hours of engine running combined with chassis movements. Surely they must have.
I expect they have already done that given it is standard practice and supposedly Honda has significant resources at their F1 center in Japan. Given that the problems seem to be engine vibration issues that are aggravated by driveline vibrations, you have to wonder if they were testing with a 2017 McLaren transmission plus rear suspension or something else that was not fully replicating the real deal, or some other flaw in how they simulated on track running.

I think the problems they are having would not happen with full manufacturers like Mercedes, Ferrari or Renault who are likely doing integration testing early and often. It would be interesting to know how this works between McLaren and Honda.

Regardless they have held it together through qualifying which surprised me. Let's see how it plays out tomorrow. You can find videos of this online, but they have adjusted how upshifts work (they are much slower now) and that is being reported to reduce the introduction of vibrations into the engine. I still tend to feel they will work this out. If they manage to finish one or both cars tomorrow then everyone might be singing a different tune. Imagine if they actually manage to score points!

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Old 26 Mar 2017, 04:15 (Ref:3721526)   #284
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Been hearing and reading a few comments that at least McLaren/Honda finished qualifying without issue, they're not doing so bad, we should give Honda a break, etc. etc. etc.

What a load of horse manure!

This is now Honda's "updated" engine. Built with lessons learnt from their previous design. And after 2 full race seasons, 4 years in total of R&D, 2 different engine designs and millions of $$'s spent, it's good that they at least finished qualifying?? And they're "not doing so bad"? Really?? Give me a break.

I'm a fan of McLaren. They were 'my favourite team' when my interest in F1 began as a six year old. And still are one of my favourite teams. And I can truly say, as a fan of McLaren, my patience with Honda has come to an end. Even if they start to do "ok" later in the season, I will not be a Honda F1 supporter. McLaren yes, Honda no.
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Old 26 Mar 2017, 07:14 (Ref:3721560)   #285
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stripedcat should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridstripedcat should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
After the Oz result - it looks like it's a no.
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