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Old 26 Mar 2017, 09:19 (Ref:3721586)   #286
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Clearly Honda's simulation technology sucks..

A 10km/h difference in Vmax doesn't help you understand how it gets there. They didnt show too many onboards with the McLarens, but the customer Benz in the Force India, and even the pretty crummy Renault seemed to leave the McLaren in their dust at the end.

Did the suspension *really* break in the McLaren, or was it about to run out of motion lotion? Mr Alonso complained of fuel saving all race...
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Old 26 Mar 2017, 14:54 (Ref:3721627)   #287
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Originally Posted by F1Guy View Post
Been hearing and reading a few comments that at least McLaren/Honda finished qualifying without issue, they're not doing so bad, we should give Honda a break, etc. etc. etc.

What a load of horse manure!
Well, we all have our opinions! Maybe that things actually worked decently well today considering how bad things were in testing isn't setting well with you. If they continue to make progress will your complaints increase?

Regardless, given how badly things went in testing and they are in a bad place, today was a good day for McLaren and Honda and it's a stretch to argue otherwise! I think just days ago people wondered if they would finish the race (I picked them for double DNF) and they finished one car and Alonso almost scored points before a reported chassis issue (see below for more comments on that). And don't get me wrong, I fully expect things to continue to be bad for a number of races yet to come. They are likely to have more DNFs, etc.

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This is now Honda's "updated" engine. Built with lessons learnt from their previous design.
You may want to do some reading. This is not an update to the old engine, but a full redesign. Regarding lessons learnt, Honda has said that the prior engine was generally speaking at a development dead end. A new path was needed, hence the full redesign vs. an update to the prior platform.

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Even if they start to do "ok" later in the season, I will not be a Honda F1 supporter. McLaren yes, Honda no.
Ok then, got it, not a Honda fan!

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Originally Posted by GTRMagic View Post
Clearly Honda's simulation technology sucks..
I am a Honda fan, but not an apologist. They clearly screwed up in multiple ways. There can be no argument there. Given that is in the past, the question is how quickly can they recover and does this new concept have legs. Time will tell.

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A 10km/h difference in Vmax doesn't help you understand how it gets there. They didnt show too many onboards with the McLarens, but the customer Benz in the Force India, and even the pretty crummy Renault seemed to leave the McLaren in their dust at the end.
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Mr Alonso complained of fuel saving all race...
It generally felt Honda made a number of tuning changes to increase reliability. Speculation is less revs, likely a bit richer burn, various other tweaks to reduce vibrations. All of that probably adds up to lower power and higher consumption. Alonso was likely on fuel savings strategy for most or all of the race. Isn't it interesting that he ran in 10th for most of the race given all of those handicaps!

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Did the suspension *really* break in the McLaren, or was it about to run out of motion lotion?
That is a good question. Given how McLaren has been willing to call out Honda's performance, I can't see them taking a dive for Honda and saying it was the car if it was the engine. While Alonso mentioned suspension failure in post race interviews, the official statement from McLaren says that he had a damage left front brake duct for the entire race, but ultimately retired due to a broken floor. Even on the radio when Alonso lost 10th late in the race, he called out a problem with the car at that very moment and not the engine. But to your point, yeah he may have run the fuel very close. I guess only McLaren and Honda know the truth.

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Old 26 Mar 2017, 17:07 (Ref:3721649)   #288
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Been hearing and reading a few comments that at least McLaren/Honda finished qualifying without issue, they're not doing so bad, we should give Honda a break, etc. etc. etc.

What a load of horse manure!

This is now Honda's "updated" engine. Built with lessons learnt from their previous design. And after 2 full race seasons, 4 years in total of R&D, 2 different engine designs and millions of $$'s spent, it's good that they at least finished qualifying?? And they're "not doing so bad"? Really?? Give me a break.

I'm a fan of McLaren. They were 'my favourite team' when my interest in F1 began as a six year old. And still are one of my favourite teams. And I can truly say, as a fan of McLaren, my patience with Honda has come to an end. Even if they start to do "ok" later in the season, I will not be a Honda F1 supporter. McLaren yes, Honda no.
Don't be naïve sir. McLaren has as much of an input into PU overall approach and design as Honda.
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Old 27 Mar 2017, 02:56 (Ref:3721741)   #289
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So... Honda has said they have been talking to other teams about engine supply, Article Here suggests they have been talking to Sauber..

Would Honda *really* split from McLaren... and would Sauber *really* be better off with a Honda engine than a year old Ferrari unit... or would Sauber *really* be able to contribute to Honda's engine development when they seem to struggle to just participate..

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Old 27 Mar 2017, 05:17 (Ref:3721750)   #290
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Take the air filter off....used to give the old Hillman Hunter another 5mph.
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Old 27 Mar 2017, 09:16 (Ref:3721807)   #291
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Originally Posted by GTRMagic View Post
So... Honda has said they have been talking to other teams about engine supply, Article Here suggests they have been talking to Sauber..

Would Honda *really* split from McLaren... and would Sauber *really* be better off with a Honda engine than a year old Ferrari unit... or would Sauber *really* be able to contribute to Honda's engine development when they seem to struggle to just participate..

Unless Honda offers to pay Sauber (which would help their bank balance). That would give double the cars running the engines, which helps data collection.
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Old 27 Mar 2017, 10:29 (Ref:3721838)   #292
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Unless Honda offers to pay Sauber (which would help their bank balance). That would give double the cars running the engines, which helps data collection.
That's the way I see it, I'm sure it would help Honda no end to have another team running their engines in addition to McLaren. Double the mileage (however small that may be) would also mean double feedback.
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Old 27 Mar 2017, 10:36 (Ref:3721839)   #293
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Originally Posted by GTRMagic View Post
So... Honda has said they have been talking to other teams about engine supply, Article Here suggests they have been talking to Sauber..

Would Honda *really* split from McLaren... and would Sauber *really* be better off with a Honda engine than a year old Ferrari unit... or would Sauber *really* be able to contribute to Honda's engine development when they seem to struggle to just participate..

They are looking to supply in addition to McLaren. Not a split. Generally it is felt that Ron wanted exclusive access. That's great if it's the top engine, but not if you need development. With Ron gone, maybe McLaren has seen the light that acting as the only development team is not to their benefit. There has been plenty written talking about just this.

Would another mid-field or even backmarker team benefit from running a factory Honda in 2018? Given it's likely they would be running the same spec as McLaren (they need mileage on the newest components), the answer is "Yes". It's highly likely that most if not all of the reliability issues will be resolved by the start of 2018. Especially in a no token environment. Performance... time will tell.

How often are teams winning with customer Mercedes or Ferrari engines these days? Especially a spec that is a year old? It gives those teams a chance to potentially move forward in relation to their nearby competitors. It's also likely that whoever becomes the second team might get a favorable deal financially.

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Old 27 Mar 2017, 16:56 (Ref:3721906)   #294
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It would make sense for Honda to spread their wings and supply an additional team. Ron wanted it exclusive because he thought Honda would produce a ducey that only McLaren would have access to, as it turns out they are more of a donkey so they need all avenues to speed up development and increase data collection. If nothing else, if things are a bit heated between Honda and McLaren it would give Honda another outfit to work with and car design to work with so they can perhaps satisfy themselves that it is or isn't all down to their engine and not a car issue as well?
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Old 27 Mar 2017, 17:08 (Ref:3721907)   #295
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Interesting comment by Mark Webber who is pretty close to Alonso, suggesting that Fernando might not see out the year at McLaren...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report...re-end-of-year
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Old 27 Mar 2017, 17:24 (Ref:3721911)   #296
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Interesting comment by Mark Webber who is pretty close to Alonso, suggesting that Fernando might not see out the year at McLaren...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report...re-end-of-year
If true, it begs the question, where will he go? All seats are taken this year. Could he get Bottas's seat after his one year contract is up? I don't think Lewis would like that.
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Old 27 Mar 2017, 17:24 (Ref:3721912)   #297
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I'd be surprised if the Spaniard walked mid-season, but McLaren do have Button race-ready in the wings if it does come to a crisis.
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Old 27 Mar 2017, 17:45 (Ref:3721918)   #298
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If true, it begs the question, where will he go? All seats are taken this year. Could he get Bottas's seat after his one year contract is up? I don't think Lewis would like that.
Retire from F1? Race in WEC? His frustration with F1 may go beyond McLaren/Honda. They may just be the icing on the cake.

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I'd be surprised if the Spaniard walked mid-season, but McLaren do have Button race-ready in the wings if it does come to a crisis.
If they don't make serious progress by mid-season, then I can imagine it happening. If they make steady progress, it might be harder to believe.

The entire thing with Button not fully retiring and McLaren having him on some of retainer (beyond a brand ambassador or whatever his title is) has always been fishy to me. As if they knew or suspected things might go sideways with Alonso so they keep Button in the wings. The implication being that Alonso had given them notice in advance... If things are not right in 2017, I am gone.

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Old 27 Mar 2017, 18:01 (Ref:3721923)   #299
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Retire from F1? Race in WEC? His frustration with F1 may go beyond McLaren/Honda. They may just be the icing on the cake.

If they don't make serious progress by mid-season, then I can imagine it happening. If they make steady progress, it might be harder to believe.

The entire thing with Button not fully retiring and McLaren having him on some of retainer (beyond a brand ambassador or whatever his title is) has always been fishy to me. As if they knew or suspected things might go sideways with Alonso so they keep Button in the wings. The implication being that Alonso had given them notice in advance... If things are not right in 2017, I am gone.

Richard
I don't get the impression he's ready to quit F1. He's always come across as a professional, so I think he would be inclined too tough it out and either look to the Mercedes seat or possibly go back to Ferrari, depending on how the new car and Kimi perform. There's always IndyCar,
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Old 27 Mar 2017, 19:03 (Ref:3721946)   #300
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i was actually very surprised how vocal Palmer was about the Renault post OZ...i can see Alonso taking over that seat for 2018 with a mid season change even a possibility if Palmer gets canned earlier.
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