VSCC vs HSCC

[D-Type]

Can somebody please explain the conflict between the VSCC and the HSCC?

To me they are very similar clubs . One caters for Vintage cars (up to 1930 or so) and also includes cars up to WW2. i.e. the Bentley / Bugatti / Vauxhall 30/98 / Austin 7 era. The other caters for postwarcars - 1946 to say 1965 and also includes cars up to about 1980. i.e. the Jaguar / Ferrari / Cooper / Lotus / Porsche era. To me(a mere armchair enthusiast and occasional spectator)they are all interesting cars unlike those raced nowadays. the only difference is that some date from before I was born, some from after, and some from when i knew the difference between them).

Both clubs cater for the owners of such cars who want to race them against similar cars andgrudgingly accept that they must admit spectators to help fund their hobby.

To me there is a large amount of synergy. So why the mutual antagonism?

[David McKinney]

You won't see many pre-66 cars at an HSCC meeting...
For the past 40 years the VSCC has run races for postwar front-engined GP cars, and more recently for sportscars of the same era, and for early rear-engined GP cars. Although these categories are, IIRC, catered for by the HSCC, that club's cut-off dates are more recent, so any participating cars are likely to be seen trundling around the back of the field.
The HSCC was founded simply because the VSCC refused to run races for postwar sportscars and grew from there to incorporate events for rear-engined single-seaters, and of course for newer sports machinery, including road cars.
Apart from that, what's the conflict you mention?

[David McKinney]

Whoops - missed the edit deadline

I should have said that the "mutual antagonism" over next weekend's Silverstone meeting is that HSCC members would prefer a meeting of their own, and so would VSCC people, instead of a combined event where a large proportion of the races will be of little interest to one or other group

[Ted Walker]

THERE IS NO "ANTAGONISM" between the two clubs, only that that has been invented on this and "another" site.

[BugEyed]

Even "mutual antagonism" is a bit strong. Silverstone is significantly responsible for the problem over the "festival" as they pushed together two separate one day club meetings, added some extra races, and then removed some of the "clubmans" races that appeal to the "grassroots" VSCC members.

There are a few more minor but important difference between the two clubs:[list=1][*]The VSCC is not just a "racing" club - only 5 out of 35+ competetive events this year are circuit races.[*]The HSCC is a club for the circuit racing competitor - they organise circuit races all round Europe.[*]The VSCC has a long tradition of "special building" whereas the HSCC is much more "purist".[*]VSCC cars do leak some oil - other racers are sensitive about this.[*]The VSCC tries to encourage a "vintage" feel in the paddock without motorhomes, transporters etc - the HSCC competitors tend to feel these are desirable to support their cars.[*]The VSCC has a large membership (7500+) a proportion of whom are a significant paying audience that support our race meetings, the HSCC depends largely on attracting non-members as an audience.[/list=1]

As a bit of history, the VSCC started in 1934 for pre-31 cars only but subsequently allowed in some "pre-war sports cars" as members. At the end of WWII the VSCC was one of the most active clubs, allowed classes for then modern cars at their meetings, and supported the BRDC in setting up Silverstone as a race circuit.

As Dave said, the VSCC eventually produced a cut-off and ceased letting in certain types of car - partially leading to the formation of the HSCC to cater for the needs of their owners. However, if you owned, say , a D Type you will find races at both clubs meetings to suit you. As the owner of a Vintage car I don't find much to interest me at an HSCC meeting and I suspect that the owner of say a 1971 Formula Ford won't find much to interest them at a VSCC meeting.

Both clubs are trying to encourage new members to their causes by running "generalist" meetings that run a wide range of non-eligible cars and some of their own cars. This is partly in the hope that people that are initially attracted by the ineligble cars are converted to the cause that we are interested in, and also to subsidise the cost of the meeting for our member competitors. Whether either of these strategies works is the subject of heated debate and an absence of facts in the public domain.

Duncan

[TimD]

Agreed - I don't think there is any animosity - apart from the recent treading on of toes when it comes to the festival meeting.

Again, I'm coming to this as a spectator. I try to get to as many VSCC meetings as I can, I try to support as much HSCC activity as I can. Either can give me a darned fine afternoon's entertainment and the only difference is that I aspire more to a vintage Bentley than I do a seventies Lotus.

[j w davies]

is there any reason why the hscc don't run sprints/hillclimbs? i know the majority of the cars raced by the hscc never ran competitively in hillclimbs in period, but to me as a spectator a hscc event at shelsley or wherever would be much more appealing than standing on a corner of silverstone or wherever.

[D-Type]

Thanks . So, rather than being the tip of an iceberg the " apparent antagonism" is the iceberg!

[eclectic]

I have raced in the VSCC for 20 or so years, and I have recently considered racing in the HSCC.

I see absolutely no conflict between the two clubs, they both cater extremely well for their members, the emphasis may be different, but the result is the same, a lot of fun driving old cars competitively.

Certainly not 'grudgingly letting in paying members of the public' I welcome them with open arms, many go on to become members.

I competed in the Joint meeting last year and I personally was not convinced that it was a good marriage, however if these meetings do benefit both clubs, (and that's a moot point), then I will continue to welcome and support the idea.

We have to remember that the point of the two clubs is to have fun driving our eligible cars competitively.

[D-Type]

Originally posted by eclectic
~
Certainly not 'grudgingly letting in paying members of the public' I welcome them with open arms, many go on to become members.
~
We have to remember that the point of the two clubs is to have fun driving our eligible cars competitively.

Unfortunately I received a rude and patronising reply when I let it be known I am a spectator, hence my dislike of the club concerned.

[Andrew Fellowes]

Attitudes of the members of the two clubs must have changed since the 80’s if it its now all sweetness & light. It wasn’t so much antagonism but perhaps just lack of compatibility.

Snobbery towards (against) spectators is so mindless. Turn up with a real quality car and see how nice ‘they’ become all of a sudden. I hope in the intervening years since that happened to me I have managed to redress the balance sheet a little but it still gets to me when I see a spectator being deliberately ignored.

[Gary Critcher]

I run a 1969 Nike Formula Ford with the HSCC and have absolutely nothing against the VSCC. I thought last years' event at Silverstone went OK, I'm hoping this weeks' event does the same, although I have noticed that there is less VSCC stuff around than last year.

[eclectic]

Originally posted by D-Type
Unfortunately I received a rude and patronising reply when I let it be known I am a spectator, hence my dislike of the club concerned.

Who the h*ll from? Not the VSCC Club office surely? Some patronising member from this forum?

Come and find me in the paddock (though please make sure you let me know who you are in advance as race day is a bit stressed for a competitor) at Mallory Park on 25th July and I will give you a turn in my Bearcat and a chance to drive it, perhaps that will be taken as an apology for the rudeness of my fellow club member?

Ask Tim D. if he enjoyed his turn in it.

[eclectic]

Re reading the above, I will have to add one thing, on raceday, particularly if you are entered in more than one race, have no support crew and have driven the car to the circuit, it can be extremely difficult to find time to politely converse with all the friends and aquaintances who come up to you in the Paddock, let alone complete strangers.

If anything is going wrong it can be impossible.

Could that have been the circumstance that triggered your "rude and patronising reply"?

[TimD]

Grab that offer of Mike's with both hands, mate! That Stutz was the most awesome thing I've ever driven. Truly amazing experience.

Thanks once again Mike!

[simon drabble]

as a racing member of both VSCC and HSCC I am not aware of any animosity between the two clubs. A VSCC meeting is a great event as is this combined meeting (which is not limited to just VSCC and HSCC, it also has a BRDC round and the Group 4 cars as well). This meeting has something for everyone. Given the demand for the Coys to be relaunched we should be talking this meeting up not down! This could be the new Historic Festival

[D-Type]

Oh dear, this is all getting rather out of hand.

What happened was that about six months ago someone from the HSCC asked for the opinion of "this forum" regarding future events. On the forum I mde a reply which said "AS A SPECTATOR I would like ... " and went on to give what I considered to be creative suggestions such as putting the time and admission price of meetings on the website, providing comprehensive programme details, etc.". I had already e-mailed them to similar effect. I was somewhat put out to receive a very 'stuffy' reply saying things like "What car do you race?" and implying that the club exists for the competitors and spectators are a nuisance to be tolerated. Hence my current attitude to the club.
Unfortunately I deleted the reply so I can't quote it verbatim.

My apologies to the VSCC - rather than making unwarranted criticism of the club I was trying to be less pointedly critical of the HSCC.

eclectic, I have tried to contact you to explain this but the system won't accept e-mails. Thank you for the kind offer which was totally unnecessary. If I come to the Silverstone meeting I would love to meet the Stutz but wouldn't insult such a fine car by letting myself anywhere near the controls!
David, your e-mail in box is full!

[eclectic]

I won't be at Silverstone, but will be at Mallory Park, a much better circuit for our cars, the offer of piloting the Stutz stands!

[Peter Mallett]

Hmm,

Maybe a look at this thread may be relevant.

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...threadid=53028

I'm not a member of either club but I've attended some of their meetings.

To me there is a need for a showcase "Historic Festival" at a location within reasonable reach of the majority of the UK. Sensibly that is Silverstone because it has the facilities.

Oulton Park with its Gold Cup (I haven't been) sounds good but geographically and facilities-wise may not fit the bill.

Of all the clubs in the UK able to put something like this together it is the V and the H SCC. They span the necessary era's, They have many competitors. And they have the enthusiasm.

I always compare these things to the MGCC. They run a festival at Silverstone and because they are appealing to a known audience they get a good crowd. And its a great event.

A combined VSCC and HSCC "festival" has many attributes and if some races lose out this year then revise the format for next year. The two clubs are lucky to have an abundance of machinery and drivers to allow them to do this.

But if you are any kind of Vintage/Historic fan then to avoid the weekend because your favourite race isn't appearing would be like taking a sharp instrument to one's proboscis to spite the visage.

BTW. Could you lot also include a race for us Group 1 pilotes?

[Bishop Ranter]

Well I'm a VSCC man through and through, trying to run pre-war cars at every VSCC race meeting that I can but while I'm not an HSCC member I also run in their events whenever possible with my FJ Cooper (and mighty fine events these are too).

The position as far as I can see is that we all need to work together...not just officials but members of the clubs too. The Silverstone meeting should be talked up because it has enormous potential but the reality is that the old Coys meeting was in fact a BRDC event with Coys as a headline sponsor. To get back to this position we would need to ensure that the BRDC is fully on board and that the circuit is the historic GP track. This all points to a date after the GP (as it used to be) when the stands etc were in place from the GP.

My observation is that modern racing is in decline in terms of spectator numbers and entries for certain categories are equally poor. The historic movement demonstrates the opposite. Having seen the poor attendances for both the F3 and BTCC meetings at Silverstone then the circuit operators need to work with all parties to get us back to the position we once enjoyed. This means effect communication between Silverstone Motorsport, the BRDC, the HSCC, the VSCC and others such as HGPCA.

[eclectic]

Well said.

[blackhands]

I agree wholeheartedly with Ranter.

As I see things there is no animosity between the vast majority of VSCC members and the HSCC. There is, however, a feeling amongst VSCC members, especially those who do not compete in ‘high profile’ cars, that the VSCC is going in a direction where it wants to become a high profile race promoter (with the accompanying financial risks) to the exclusion of these ordinary cars so that this year the number of racing opportunities for these cars is fewer than in the past. In past years the Second VSCC Silverstone presented opportunities for all types of racing – this year there are only 4 VSCC races over 2 days. So, any animosity comes from the fact that VSCC members would rather have a 2nd VSCC meeting at Silverstone (or somewhere else) than a shared one. But that doesn’t necessarily rule out a 3rd shared meeting – a la Coys.

I will be flagging at the weekend and hope to wave flags at Ranter if he manages to pass the fire truck this time.

[Peter Mallett]

FWIW. There has been a "split" between Cart and Indy racing. Don't let that happen or even begin to creep in here. Historics and Vintage racing is really one and the same. Its about all we've got left of interest now that the powers that be have moved towards high cost, low value, short term gain, championships.

Disagree but don't (and I haven't seen it yet) decry each discipline.

But also don't forget us more recent Group1 guys eh?

[Chris Roden]

I have to say that Ranter and Blackhands have it right. I compete in VSCC events when I get the chance, and love it.
The issue is related, IMHO, to the fact that in the 70th Aniversary year of the VSCC we have fewer races for the ordinary member than normal. It is great that some members have the chance to participate in an HSCC meeting, just a bit sad that I can't have a go!
I have seriously considered getting my HSCC eligible car out this season so that I can join in. As ever, time and cost have ruled this out for 2004.
I will also be waving at competitors on Saturday, can't do Sunday, so I suspect I won't get to flap at Ranter.
Look forward to seeing some of you there?

[johngee]

As the HSCC Clerk of the Course at last year's combined VSCC/HSCC Silverstone meeting (and repeating the experience this coming weekend) I can assure everyone that there is ABSOLUTELY NO animosity, of any kind, between the two organising teams. We all agreed, last year, that we had learnt a lot from working with each other and I'm sure that will be the case again this year.
IMHO it would do wonders for the organisation (and commercial viability!) of club motor sport, for more clubs to undertake 'joint venture' meetings. Nobody knows all the answers but we might find more of them if we work together.