Fire extinguisher pull

[graeme]

I've a cable-operated fire extinguisher in my car. Although I've never had cause to use it, it seems (when lubing the cable) that pulling the handle would fire the extinguisher but it would stop when you let go. I think I've seen a device that would make the extinguisher dispense 'til it was empty (though it might have been a dream :confused: ). Anyone know of such a device? I can imagine the situation in which I had to use it would be a quick pull (oh, er) then trying to get out; it'd be nice if the extinguisher would keep going to:
a) save the car whilst I run away
b)allow me to get on with extricating myself

[Tim Falce]

My extinguisher has a little bit of bent wire attached to the main part of the handle that locks the pivoted part open when the cable is pulled.
What do you lube the cable with? mine seem to corrode so I renew the outside on each year.

[graeme]

After the first race of the season I noticed the cable was sticking, so I emptied pretty much a whole can of GT85 down it, and its much better. I used to have a cable oiler, which is a rubber gaiter with a screwthread that seals around the cable; you then pop the straw of your lube in a little hole and it forces lube down the cable. But I lost it... I think you get them from bike shops.

Will try the bit of wire trick. Some sort of rachet mechanism would be cool...

[brickkicker]

I've a cable-operated fire extinguisher in my car. Although I've never had cause to use it, it seems (when lubing the cable) that pulling the handle would fire the extinguisher but it would stop when you let go.

If this is a proper extingisher supplied for a race car it should be total discharge.
It would be a good idea to check as it is a blue book requirement for it to be fitted with a total discharge valve. (Q3.2.8 if you want to read it)

[graeme]

IIRC the Blue Book recommends that it should be total discharge, but doesn't state that it must be.

[brickkicker]

Well here is the reg let people make there own mind up, but I stand by it must be total discharge
Q 3.2.8
Mechanically operated system, if used should be fitted with total discharge valves ie ones that continue to discharge even if the operating mechanism should fail after triggering)
Hand held extinguishers which have been adapted by adition of pull cables rarely have the capability of being operated in varying positions and are not acceptable.

[graeme]

Erm..you're not a scrutineer are are? (Why didn't I use a pseudoname on here...?)

[Chris Y]

I've got a little device which is like some kinda of trim retaining screw, which goes through a hole on the extinguisher handle. When the handle is compressed, the little plastic splines stop the handle coming back up again. Works a treat, in an agricutural sort of way.

For pull cables, I just take the metal cable out of the sleeve, and coat it entirely with copper grease, then insert it back into the sleeve - also works very well.

[graeme]

Chris - any idea where you got it?

[R59]

"Should be fitted" is not the same as "Must be Fitted"

What gets me is that all dry powder extinguishers are no permitted for use in a car, yet the Health & Safety Executive state that ABC Powder is the best extinguishant for fuel/oil/metal fires, where the use of AFFF is not recommended for fuel, oil, and metal fires.

Strange as it seems, most cars are made with metal, and run on fuel and carry oil, yet the most effective extinguishant isn't allowed!

I admit to have "flouting" the regs in the past, carrying an ABC Powder extinguisher in the car, as well as the mandatory AFFF job.
If I had a fire in the car, I know which one I'd use.

I've seen plenty of rally cars after they tried to put them out with the three AFFF extinguishers that they tend to carry. Not much left of them!

AFFF is only good for filling Fire Station toilet blocks as part of a practical joke, unless it is used in conjunction with a powder extinguisher to cap it.

And it also seems that the MSA doesn't want to discuss the subject as they haven't even had the decency to respond or acknowledge my emails and letters on this safety matter.

Stop me from ranting will you, it's an emotive subject!

Rob.

[JimW]

Originally posted by racing59
[BWhat gets me is that all dry powder extinguishers are no permitted for use in a car, yet the Health & Safety Executive state that ABC Powder is the best extinguishant for fuel/oil/metal fires, where the use of AFFF is not recommended for fuel, oil, and metal fires.

. . .
Rob. [/B]

I wouldn't dream of stopping you from ranting, it is how we know what matters to people.

Dry powder is great for putting out fuel fires (and modestly OK for many other sorts of fires). But it is at keeping them out.

This is why marshals are given both sorts, first to knock the flames down and second to stop persistent sources of ignition (electrical sparks or heating, hot exhausts, burning trim or overheated drivers) from re-igniting the fire.

As for in-car extinguishers, I have always trained marshals to ignore them. CAVEAT: I'm talking about fully manned circuit events, not rallies, testing or trackdays etc.

So the MSA say you have to have AFFF. Fine, it can do no harm. But I'd always fit a dry powder as well even if I had to mis-label it if the regulations prohibited it. I suspect they don't; they just require mandatory extinguishers to be AFFF (or a limited selection of others).

(PS ABC for metal fires? - someone is taking the . For metal fires what you need is distance. otherwise you will have The powder needed for metal fires is not ABC powder.)

Anyway if your car is on fire for long enough to set "metal" alight and you are still in it, then I regret that the question of extinguisher will not be bothering you.

Regards

Jim

[JimW]

And (re)turning to the use of the pull, I'm glad you are all taking such care to lubricate it. Speaking personally I would have been happier if all of you took greater care to remove extinguisher isolating pins.

Twice out of the last four times I felt that pulling the release was warranted, it has not worked and investigation has revealed that there was a pin left in.

Most recently, I really wanted to stop a TVR engine which had been running against the rev limiter until we in the rescue unit got there. Seriously scary noise level and the exhaust was toasting my ankles as I went towards the unconscious driver. So I yanked on the nearest handle (which later inspection revealed was the extinguisher). Nothing happened so I yanked harder and was rewarded with a handle and length of wire.

By now I wondering if the trainee crew member could be persuaded to hit the distributor with a sledge hammer. (That, and water rescues, are what we keep trainees for. )

But fortunately I realised that I had been ignoring the master switch a bit further round the car and that worked as advertised.

Regards

Jim

[JimW]

Originally posted by JimW
. . .
This is why marshals are given both sorts, first to knock the flames down and second to stop persistent sources of ignition (electrical sparks or heating, hot exhausts, burning trim or overheated drivers) from re-igniting the fire.

. . .

I should have said at UK race circuits are given both dry powder and AFFF.

Sorry to be unclear.

Jim

[Stuart Hill]

Originally posted by JimW

So I yanked on the nearest handle (which later inspection revealed was the extinguisher). Nothing happened so I yanked harder and was rewarded with a handle and length of wire.

But fortunately I realised that I had been ignoring the master switch a bit further round the car and that worked as advertised.

Regards

Jim

which highlights another problem us marshals have.....

some cars are fitted with "double-pull" systems. ie:

One pull= Cut Electrics,
Two pulls = Extinguisher released.

so what happens if we don't feel the end of the first pull (in the heat of an incident) and carry-on to the second one????

Result: a seriously P'd Off driver who now has a car full of extinguisher when we only meant to cut the electrics!!

PLEASE have TWO separate pulls, clearly labeled, and this scene may never happen to YOU !!

[Chigley]

PLEASE have TWO separate pulls, clearly labeled, and this scene may never happen to YOU !!

Stu, the Kumho Beemers are going to make us think all our Xmas' have come at once. 2 seperate pulls, labelled in plain English, in an accessible position and be able to operate them with thick gloves on. All I hope is that we don't have to use them.

[Stuart Hill]

Originally posted by Chigley
Stu, the Kumho Beemers are going to make us think all our Xmas' have come at once. 2 seperate pulls, labelled in plain English, in an accessible position and be able to operate them with thick gloves on. All I hope is that we don't have to use them.

I know, I was just wondering how many others had possibly considered the idea ???

[mark ch]

Just remember where the pull switch is located...
One unfortune driver spun off at the first meeting at Mallory this year. Car was fine... Sat out qualifying.. went to get back in to drive back at the end of session and hit the on board extinguisher getting in oops....

[graham bahr]

i using normal wheel bearing etc type grease i grease my inner cables before fitting them not only does it lubricate, it doesn't let the water in in the first place, so they never seize.

[vaughan jones]

If you go to buy these cables, be careful, i have bought them from a well known supplier, taken inner out and to find they are rusty already,treat them as a consumable and replace every season ??

[archibold]

A solution to the cable problem is to go electric (they are not much more expensive than manual). All you have to do is to remember to test the battery and to turn it on. No more problems. As it is a big button it is easy to operate from outside with gloves on (at least I think it is easier than trying to get under a pull). The other advantage is that it is much easier to route a wire than a cable that has to be pulled.

Of course if you don't turn it on it's never going to work, but this is the same as leaving the pin in.

[Slowcoach]

In answer to the original question, I fitted the latest fully plumbed in lifeline 2000 system last year, then had the car resprayed over the winter, Saturday at Rockingham I was about to drive the car for the first time, parked in the assembly area, strapped myself in, pulled out the pin leant over to put the plug in and...the thing fired - mostly straight into my face, I managed to pull the plug straight out, believe me it didnt stop, I released my straps and got out, still blind I was speedily escorted by a marshall to the medical centre were a thorough washing of my eyes ears and nose took place.
The reason it fired was that some idiot (me) pulled the wrong cable pull just after painting (with no signage) but because I knew the pin was in and it didnt pull - didnt think twice - but infact the switch was resting on the pin so when the pin was pulled the system went live. Then I put the plug in........
Lessons learned....
1)The new extinguisher worked (always wondered if it would)
2)Discharge is full, even when plug pulled out or switch turned off.
3) Have the nozzle very close to you - so it covers you in foam if you are unconscious and alight !
4) Wash your eyes and overalls thoroughly - the stuff rots your suit - god knows what it did to my eyes......
5) What use would a hand held extinguisher have been if your were unconscious and alight.
6) Full system will also save more of your car - one went up in flames at Rockingham yesterday.
7) Always check the position of the switch before you pull the pin.........
I will have mine refilled and will keep the new hand held alongside it.

[Stuart Hill]

Originally posted by Slowcoach
In answer to the original question, I fitted the latest fully plumbed in lifeline 2000 system last year, then had the car resprayed over the winter, Saturday at Rockingham I was about to drive the car for the first time, parked in the assembly area, strapped myself in, pulled out the pin leant over to put the plug in and...the thing fired - mostly straight into my face, I managed to pull the plug straight out, believe me it didnt stop, I released my straps and got out, still blind I was speedily escorted by a marshall to the medical centre were a thorough washing of my eyes ears and nose took place.
The reason it fired was that some idiot (me) pulled the wrong cable pull just after painting (with no signage) but because I knew the pin was in and it didnt pull - didnt think twice - but infact the switch was resting on the pin so when the pin was pulled the system went live. Then I put the plug in........
Lessons learned....
1)The new extinguisher worked (always wondered if it would)
2)Discharge is full, even when plug pulled out or switch turned off.
3) Have the nozzle very close to you - so it covers you in foam if you are unconscious and alight !
4) Wash your eyes and overalls thoroughly - the stuff rots your suit - god knows what it did to my eyes......
5) What use would a hand held extinguisher have been if your were unconscious and alight.
6) Full system will also save more of your car - one went up in flames at Rockingham yesterday.
7) Always check the position of the switch before you pull the pin.........
I will have mine refilled and will keep the new hand held alongside it.

not a nice lesson to learn but a very important one eh Slowcoach???

you might want to think about submitting your experience to your local, or even national, newsletter to maybe enlighten some other drivers??? just a thought.

[graeme]

On a vaguely realted point, can anyone remember the name of the fire extinguisher company at Mallory, near the hairpin? Are they stil there? Got contact details?

[tangoed sparky]

Question? When discovering that your race car is on fire what steps should you take to deal with it?


BIG ONES

[brickkicker]

get out !!!!!!!