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Old 1 Apr 2020, 05:34 (Ref:3967958)   #3801
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Originally Posted by MissClarrpz View Post
FIA has CCTV of F1 wind tunnels and as new cars look different to current generation they can spot that. For CFD not too sure but they might need to report what data crunching they do???
Interesting regarding the tunnel monitoring. I was thinking more about CFD, etc. I think CFD time was moving to less monitoring, but can't remember. In the end, I suspect it's unlikely teams would try to circumvent in a significant way. No doubt they will be noodling ideas in their heads until then.

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Further to this year's ban, teams are looking to a delay of the new rules until 2023.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14...-delay-to-2023
It sounds like that the cost caps are still potentially in play. Frankly the best thing would be to...

1. Freeze any development toward the next technical regulations (now until cost caps are in place)
2. Implement cost caps. (2021 season and beyond)
3. Implement the new technical regulations (2022/2023 season and beyond)

This puts team on more even playing field going into 2022 or 2023.

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Old 1 Apr 2020, 10:06 (Ref:3967999)   #3802
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They are going to use old cars from the 90s, that's how it's going to work
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Old 10 Apr 2020, 05:09 (Ref:3969703)   #3803
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I think that all this of the budget limit is rubbish, I wonder how they are going to control all this?
The FIA has a great lack of imagination to develop regulations.
What is the best way to equalize things?
Championship points, no one speculates on that, you need them to get the Champion.
A race awards 26 points now to the one who can get all the points.
I understand that current regulations allow 110 Kg fuel limit per race and 100 Kg per hour fuel flow rate.
My proposal would be:
* The cars that are more than 26 points from the leader of the championship (1 Race) could use 115 Kg fuel limit per race and 105 Kg per hour fuel rate.
* The cars that are more than 52 points from the leader of the championship (2 races) could use 115 Kg fuel limit per race and 105 Kg per hour fuel rate and could refuel at Pit Stops 25 Kg.
* The cars that are more than 78 points from the leader of the championship (3 races) could use 120 Kg fuel limit per race and 110 Kg per hour fuel rate and could refuel at Pit Stops 25 Kg.
*The cars that are more than 104 points from the leader of the championship (4 races) could use 120 Kg fuel limit per race and 110 Kg per hour fuel rate and could refuel at Pit Stops 50 Kg.
And so you can continue wherever you want.
I'm sure Hamilton would win the championship again but the races would be fabulous.
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Old 10 Apr 2020, 06:35 (Ref:3969707)   #3804
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The last thing we need is a return to refuelling. Just looking back at the days we did have it, it dictated the race too much. I don't think fuel flow rate restrictions would work either. Handicapping is just not F1
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Old 10 Apr 2020, 06:36 (Ref:3969708)   #3805
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That's just a really complicated success ballast system though isn't it? Why do that when you can just add weight to the car?
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Old 10 Apr 2020, 10:00 (Ref:3969740)   #3806
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It doesn’t belong at all. I agree with Brawn, F1 should remain a meritocracy
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Old 10 Apr 2020, 13:03 (Ref:3969779)   #3807
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How is cost capping going to help teams that now spend less than the cap, news flash, it won't. The cost cap would have to be down to the figure that the lowest spending team is now at to have any chance of levelling things which is a pipe dream anyway.
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Old 10 Apr 2020, 14:16 (Ref:3969791)   #3808
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I think you would really have to get the teams to see how bad the situation if they can agree on a cost cap that will work
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Old 10 Apr 2020, 15:57 (Ref:3969820)   #3809
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How is cost capping going to help teams that now spend less than the cap, news flash, it won't. The cost cap would have to be down to the figure that the lowest spending team is now at to have any chance of levelling things which is a pipe dream anyway.
Depends upon how close to the bottom it gets and how long it takes to drag the performance of those impacted by the cap to degrade. Plus, cost cap alone does not fix all the problems.

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Old 10 Apr 2020, 15:58 (Ref:3969823)   #3810
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I want tank stopps back, but that won't ever happen in those times.
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Old 10 Apr 2020, 16:00 (Ref:3969825)   #3811
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Thank goodness, we don’t need multiple stops. Watching races from 94-08 confirms that
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Old 11 Apr 2020, 04:46 (Ref:3969957)   #3812
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How is cost capping going to help teams that now spend less than the cap, news flash, it won't. The cost cap would have to be down to the figure that the lowest spending team is now at to have any chance of levelling things which is a pipe dream anyway.
News Flash!
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Old 11 Apr 2020, 20:47 (Ref:3970152)   #3813
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The last thing we need is a return to refuelling. Just looking back at the days we did have it, it dictated the race too much. I don't think fuel flow rate restrictions would work either. Handicapping is just not F1
I agree with you the handicap should not be in Formula 1, but Is there really equality when one team can spend 500 million and another 100 or 150?
This is not equality.
A simple question, how are they going to control that nobody goes over the budget limit? How can you know if a powerful team hides development costs within the factory developments for their street cars?
Also what happens if a powerful team turns the wrong way and their car is rubbish as it happened in the first months of the Ferrari 2019, They had the approval of an extraordinary budget to solve that. This would be impossible with the budget limit and that car would be a disaster all the year.
Also in the resurrection of Ferrari the power of the engine had a great influence that we still did not know if it was legal, which in some ways is quite similar to what I'm asking with the extra fuel.
And thank God that Ferrari resuscitated and gave us those wonderful final races otherwise we would have had more horrible races like France.

Of course if you use your imagination there are lots of better methods to use before the budget limit. For example, something already proven with great success in the 2007 and 2008 ALMS, which must be one of the most exciting races I have ever seen. LMP1 Vs LMP2, Audi R10 TDI, (925 Kg, 700/730 HP) Porsche RS Spyder and Acura ARX01A/B (775/800 KG, 525/550 HP) All the cars had an overall win in some races and those races had some of the best battles because the LMP1 was very fast on the straights and the LMP2 was very fast on the corners. Why not 600 KG and engine without hybrid system for smaller teams?


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That's just a really complicated success ballast system though isn't it? Why do that when you can just add weight to the car?
This system would have the true effect in the race and only very little effect in the qualyfing. Only the fuel rate would influence the qualyfing, but the most powerful teams have the party mode which would be very similar to now.
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Old 12 Apr 2020, 07:56 (Ref:3970235)   #3814
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Of course it would be good if budgets were under control to close the gaps between the haves and the have nots. As it’s too much of a two tier system atm. But we also need the racing to be better too
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Old 12 Apr 2020, 22:09 (Ref:3970433)   #3815
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I want tank stopps back, but that won't ever happen in those times.
I want to see drivers fighting it out on-track.
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Old 13 Apr 2020, 09:24 (Ref:3970538)   #3816
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I want to see drivers fighting it out on-track.
I want that too, but overall I want racing.

If that means a team design a stupendously fast, light car with a tiny tank that can only do 10 laps before refueling, with another team designing a slightly slower car that can do the entire race distance on a single fill and doesn't need to stop for new boots, with them both coming together right at the end - why not?

That's the biggest change in recent decades for me. Random* drivers picking off the entire field in order to win because they've made an inspired design and strategy choice is one of the things that's missing.

But, I fear, this is just ending up as another one of those "what is F1" questions again...

*Excluding the current top cars which can do it to order.
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Old 13 Apr 2020, 12:27 (Ref:3970567)   #3817
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I want that too, but overall I want racing.

If that means a team design a stupendously fast, light car with a tiny tank that can only do 10 laps before refueling, with another team designing a slightly slower car that can do the entire race distance on a single fill and doesn't need to stop for new boots, with them both coming together right at the end - why not?

That's the biggest change in recent decades for me. Random* drivers picking off the entire field in order to win because they've made an inspired design and strategy choice is one of the things that's missing.

But, I fear, this is just ending up as another one of those "what is F1" questions again...

*Excluding the current top cars which can do it to order.
There is nothing wrong discussing what Formula One is or should be. I wish Formula One's stakeholders had done it more often and, above all, more fundamentally.

And yes, it would be great to see drivers and cars having different paces relatively during the year, during different stages of the races and even through different sections of the track, but then again, without pit stops. Let drivers think about their strategy.
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Old 14 Apr 2020, 10:08 (Ref:3970721)   #3818
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Exactly, I feel the different way cars are set up to do the whole race would see the variables we need.
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Old 15 Apr 2020, 02:25 (Ref:3970883)   #3819
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Trouble is that they are all so bloody good. You don’t get variations like you used too.

The difference between the front and the back is closer than it has ever been, but it is way more consistent. So less interesting.

Generally, it is messing up that gives you variation not people being amazing. Could you imagine an Internet forum around in the days when there were more mistakes in driving, set-up, choice of tyre, engine partner, etc... People wouldn’t be able to cope!
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Old 15 Apr 2020, 07:35 (Ref:3970900)   #3820
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Trouble is that they are all so bloody good. You don’t get variations like you used too.

The difference between the front and the back is closer than it has ever been, but it is way more consistent. So less interesting.

Generally, it is messing up that gives you variation not people being amazing. Could you imagine an Internet forum around in the days when there were more mistakes in driving, set-up, choice of tyre, engine partner, etc... People wouldn’t be able to cope!
And in the style of a modern internet forum: yes they would! I would have been able to cope better than you, and definitely better than Hamilton. Etc etc etc.
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Old 15 Apr 2020, 12:19 (Ref:3970934)   #3821
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Trouble is that they are all so bloody good. You don’t get variations like you used too.

The difference between the front and the back is closer than it has ever been, but it is way more consistent. So less interesting.

Generally, it is messing up that gives you variation not people being amazing. Could you imagine an Internet forum around in the days when there were more mistakes in driving, set-up, choice of tyre, engine partner, etc... People wouldn’t be able to cope!
People handle the 24-hours of Le Mans and the Indy 500 quite well, I believe.

Having said that, Formula One teams have become very consistent indeed. That is partly the result of them being more advanced, partly because of the regulations. The later reward consistency in terms of championship point, but also forces teams to be consistent. The legislator could reverse that easily.
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Old 15 Apr 2020, 12:57 (Ref:3970938)   #3822
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Trouble is that they are all so bloody good. You don’t get variations like you used too.

The difference between the front and the back is closer than it has ever been, but it is way more consistent. So less interesting.

Generally, it is messing up that gives you variation not people being amazing. Could you imagine an Internet forum around in the days when there were more mistakes in driving, set-up, choice of tyre, engine partner, etc... People wouldn’t be able to cope!
I think people would be able to cope, as they would accept what was happening as normal.

When I first started following F1 in the early '70s, I could expect to see a high attrition rate, with nearly half the field not making it to the end.
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Old 15 Apr 2020, 13:13 (Ref:3970941)   #3823
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Originally Posted by Greem View Post
I want that too, but overall I want racing.

If that means a team design a stupendously fast, light car with a tiny tank that can only do 10 laps before refueling, with another team designing a slightly slower car that can do the entire race distance on a single fill and doesn't need to stop for new boots, with them both coming together right at the end - why not?

That's the biggest change in recent decades for me. Random* drivers picking off the entire field in order to win because they've made an inspired design and strategy choice is one of the things that's missing.

But, I fear, this is just ending up as another one of those "what is F1" questions again...

*Excluding the current top cars which can do it to order.
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Old 15 Apr 2020, 14:22 (Ref:3970955)   #3824
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I think people would be able to cope, as they would accept what was happening as normal.

When I first started following F1 in the early '70s, I could expect to see a high attrition rate, with nearly half the field not making it to the end.
As I said earlier, people seem to handle races like the 24-hours of Le Mans and the Indy 500 quite well. The 1996 Monaco Grand Prix was broadcast 're-live, because it is widely considered as a classic race one should watch. Well, is that despite or (partly) because only three cars took the checkered flag?
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Old 15 Apr 2020, 17:33 (Ref:3970992)   #3825
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Handicapping is just not F1
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It doesn’t belong at all. I agree with Brawn, F1 should remain a meritocracy
or, if you prefer,

For those that want artificial, orchestrated, "good" racing (unh-unnnhhh, in reality, close, not real "good", racing),
one make, assembled, kit-car (Dallara DW12) IndyCar already exists for your entertainment.
'Can't get any "fairer" then everyone using the same exact mandated chassis, body, and parts, for a "good" show, now can you.....?

Leave F1 to the best (designers, engineers, fabricators, mechanics, etc.); the spoils belonging to the victor.....

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