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Old 14 Dec 2015, 23:12 (Ref:3597820)   #26
Geraint Owen
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Having heard nothing, I called the MSA today

After "discussions" with the FIA they now accept that they have to transfer papers from other ASNs..... BUT there is a catch. They are insisting an inspector comes out to put a new bar code on. And whilst they are with the car they will check that it is still in the spec as presented on the papers

I cant decide if this is simply another MSA con and they are actually just enabling themselves to charge for another inspection or whether a check that the car hasn't been mucked about with post paper issue is a good idea. I was told this could be done at a meeting if an inspector was there

Cant decide if I will bother or not
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Old 15 Dec 2015, 08:59 (Ref:3597897)   #27
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Originally Posted by Geraint Owen View Post
Having heard nothing, I called the MSA today

After "discussions" with the FIA they now accept that they have to transfer papers from other ASNs..... BUT there is a catch. They are insisting an inspector comes out to put a new bar code on. And whilst they are with the car they will check that it is still in the spec as presented on the papers

I cant decide if this is simply another MSA con and they are actually just enabling themselves to charge for another inspection or whether a check that the car hasn't been mucked about with post paper issue is a good idea. I was told this could be done at a meeting if an inspector was there

Cant decide if I will bother or not
You can't stick the barcode on yourself any more.
That said just have them stick it on at an event where an inspector is present. With the new papers they have the barcode before the papers are issued anyway.
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Old 15 Dec 2015, 09:44 (Ref:3597902)   #28
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I've just instigated the renewal/replacement of the HTP on PEA, and thus far its been a doddle . . . despite agreeing to write off 2 weeks over Christmas, I've spoken to Jim Lowry a few times and we should be done and dusted early January.

Assuming he doesn't notice the traction control, 6 speed sequential, 6 pots calipers and 6 way adjustable titanium dampers
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Old 15 Dec 2015, 11:44 (Ref:3597930)   #29
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Originally Posted by Geraint Owen View Post
Having heard nothing, I called the MSA today

After "discussions" with the FIA they now accept that they have to transfer papers from other ASNs..... BUT there is a catch. They are insisting an inspector comes out to put a new bar code on. And whilst they are with the car they will check that it is still in the spec as presented on the papers

I cant decide if this is simply another MSA con and they are actually just enabling themselves to charge for another inspection or whether a check that the car hasn't been mucked about with post paper issue is a good idea. I was told this could be done at a meeting if an inspector was there
The inspection fee goes to the inspector, from my experience, so nothing for MSA to gain directly from that. What I'm not understanding, though, is- Does it mean that while attaching the sticker at a a race meeting, the inspector checks the spec is correct, you have to pay another fee? If he travels to you in order to attach the barcode, there must be travel expenses involved, at least....
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Old 15 Dec 2015, 11:48 (Ref:3597931)   #30
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Originally Posted by zefarelly View Post
I've just instigated the renewal/replacement of the HTP on PEA, and thus far its been a doddle . . . despite agreeing to write off 2 weeks over Christmas, I've spoken to Jim Lowry a few times and we should be done and dusted early January.

Assuming he doesn't notice the traction control, 6 speed sequential, 6 pots calipers and 6 way adjustable titanium dampers
All on the special export spec, surely? Think you'll find Jim reads a lot of this stuff, BTW!
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Old 15 Dec 2015, 17:04 (Ref:3597969)   #31
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I'm sure he does, as do many others, who don't post.

Occaisionally, I'd like to think some good comes from it, its generally more constructive and better informed then the 'look at me look at me' online media outlets.

I will continue to speak the truth, as I see it, and if silent onlookers don't like it, who are we to care.
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Old 17 Dec 2015, 13:06 (Ref:3598358)   #32
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Originally Posted by Geraint Owen View Post
Having heard nothing, I called the MSA today

After "discussions" with the FIA they now accept that they have to transfer papers from other ASNs..... BUT there is a catch. They are insisting an inspector comes out to put a new bar code on. And whilst they are with the car they will check that it is still in the spec as presented on the papers

I cant decide if this is simply another MSA con and they are actually just enabling themselves to charge for another inspection or whether a check that the car hasn't been mucked about with post paper issue is a good idea. I was told this could be done at a meeting if an inspector was there

Cant decide if I will bother or not
I would say that the MSA is right to impose such practice. Some countries don't ever inspect the car and are not bothered respecting the prescriptions that are made.

The result is cars being put together for pictures and once they have the barcode, they are just a completely different spec.

In a way, the MSA through its registrars is checking that the car still complies with the papers and that validates the transfer. The cost of that inspection is to cover the registrar expenses (knowing the MSA system).

Again, no system is perfect and cannot be but at least they didn't ask you to pay for a full set of papers...
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Old 17 Dec 2015, 13:13 (Ref:3598361)   #33
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Originally Posted by FISCracer View Post
Like Terry I think we should just ignore the FIA and HTPs

Lets face it many FIA cars do not comply with their papers except on the day they are inspected and there is no eligibility scutineering at events, so cheating is rife.

In addition to the FIA money grab for new papers, many owners are no finding their cars require substantial work to comply to 'revised' homologations that have never been discussed or gone through due process. All this will do is to reduce grids and drive costs up for race organisers and competitors.

I have 5 FIA cars and only one has new, current papers. Those were issued earlier this year as a condition of sale before I imported it. If they seriously expect me to pay again for another inspection, I have a suggestion as to where they can put their papers ;-)
Nothing is mandatory with FIA HTP, if you wanna walk away from that system, you can. National ASN have their own papers and you could do with these but you would have to race at national level only.

The money that the FIA grabs, well, don't forget that ASNs have authority on this and can add whatever amount they wish to, to the FIA fee. There are no revised homologations in general. Some past practice are being corrected because they were too large at a certain time or strict regulations enforcement was not the practice by then...
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Old 17 Dec 2015, 13:22 (Ref:3598363)   #34
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Not Fia Legal…. Yet runs its original Brazed Chassis, original body, Original rear uprights and Quills, Trunnions at front.



This one seems to be Fia legal these days….



Me thinks something must be wrong with the international rules when race preparers are forced to build cars that look like this one to be able to race in period!!
The 1965 EHM Paul car at Brands Hatch. Note that the TVR Griffith might not have had the largest homologated wheels at that time but they were homologated so therefore, they stand.



Then there was this other car, the 1965 Grosser Preis Von Tirol Griffith, a pretty much standard car in all aspect.



Therefore, both the "wild" and "standard" cars can have HTPs, after, it's all about not cherry picking a good point from the wild one and putting it to the standard one I suppose.
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Old 17 Dec 2015, 15:07 (Ref:3598375)   #35
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Are you using these photos as proof that cars in this guise ran in period? Was the Griffith in the photo leading the E Type in an international race?
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Old 17 Dec 2015, 15:39 (Ref:3598382)   #36
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Are you using these photos as proof that cars in this guise ran in period? Was the Griffith in the photo leading the E Type in an international race?
Both photos are from period and verified International Events.

EHM Paul car, Brands Hatch 1965, REDEX Trophy.

Other one - Grosser Preis Von Tirol, Austria, 1965.
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Old 17 Dec 2015, 16:00 (Ref:3598388)   #37
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To my mind the hot rod one is a prototype GTP?
the std car is a production based homologated GT?

The Question is, should a new build 'prototype' be allowed an HTP?

if it is, as are most new builds, then its merely down to organisers whether they allow certain cars or not . . . If only owners/presenters were honest about the origins of their steeds.
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Old 17 Dec 2015, 17:44 (Ref:3598420)   #38
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Both photos are from period and verified International Events.

EHM Paul car, Brands Hatch 1965, REDEX Trophy.

Other one - Grosser Preis Von Tirol, Austria, 1965.
Oh I well know the histories….Probably better than most, especially most FIA personnel.
The Redex trophy is actually questioned.. The EHM paul car is approved via a race in Aspern I believe!!

Now then….. The EHM Paul car was documented to have run with rear disc brakes!!!….Funny how the FIA want to cherry pic only certain parts of history….surely the idea of HTP is to demonstrate that a particular car ran in the olden days…back in the olden days specs changed on those cars on a weekly basis.. The FIA seem to want to draw a line in the sand but they are pretty hopeless in enforcing anything……

There seem to be lots of nice cars in the TVR world getting re-built into cars that only ran in a certain point in time….Seems like a futile exercise to me and such a shame. even more silly to consider that the version of the griff which existed in largest numbers in 64-66 wasn't even homologated!!!

Its purely down to greed and making money and the ability of the FIA to make lots of it to suit their own ends…

If cars were inspected and scrutineered on the basis of meeting the spirit of the regs then perhaps they would have more people racing and more inclusive racing…problem is the FIA wouldn't then be able to print money on the back of supposedly providing a service!!

i will stick to my little club racing exploits…The FIA can take a running jump!!

N.

Last edited by Heightswitch; 17 Dec 2015 at 17:51.
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Old 17 Dec 2015, 19:15 (Ref:3598441)   #39
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To my mind the hot rod one is a prototype GTP?
the std car is a production based homologated GT?

The Question is, should a new build 'prototype' be allowed an HTP?

if it is, as are most new builds, then its merely down to organisers whether they allow certain cars or not . . . If only owners/presenters were honest about the origins of their steeds.
GT entered unfortunately.

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Oh I well know the histories….Probably better than most, especially most FIA personnel.
The Redex trophy is actually questioned.. The EHM paul car is approved via a race in Aspern I believe!!

Now then….. The EHM Paul car was documented to have run with rear disc brakes!!!….Funny how the FIA want to cherry pic only certain parts of history….surely the idea of HTP is to demonstrate that a particular car ran in the olden days…back in the olden days specs changed on those cars on a weekly basis.. The FIA seem to want to draw a line in the sand but they are pretty hopeless in enforcing anything……

There seem to be lots of nice cars in the TVR world getting re-built into cars that only ran in a certain point in time….Seems like a futile exercise to me and such a shame. even more silly to consider that the version of the griff which existed in largest numbers in 64-66 wasn't even homologated!!!

Its purely down to greed and making money and the ability of the FIA to make lots of it to suit their own ends…

If cars were inspected and scrutineered on the basis of meeting the spirit of the regs then perhaps they would have more people racing and more inclusive racing…problem is the FIA wouldn't then be able to print money on the back of supposedly providing a service!!

i will stick to my little club racing exploits…The FIA can take a running jump!!

N.
We tend to be more and more documented here, with period originals mainly and a 1965 International Sporting Calendar issued for the 1965 season stands on my desk as Period F is the most questionnable period. However, the Brands Hatch event being registered as an International Event, then it's a fact, we are not talking about a National Event with Foreign Authorized Participation or whatever here.

We are also more than welcome to get your documentation and input if you have such period evidence, photos or whatever verified document about TVRs or any other car actually, I'm on here to follow what is happening and listen.
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Old 17 Dec 2015, 20:01 (Ref:3598445)   #40
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I fail to see how the FiA make money from individuals blowing large amounts of money building competitive cars . . . . at which point, most of them are brand new, so fewer originals get *******ised.

The Fia needs a draw a line alright . . . . allow replicas to have HTP's, or not.

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There seem to be lots of nice cars in the TVR world getting re-built into cars that only ran in a certain point in time….Seems like a futile exercise to me and such a shame. even more silly to consider that the version of the griff which existed in largest numbers in 64-66 wasn't even homologated!!!

Its purely down to greed and making money and the ability of the FIA to make lots of it to suit their own ends…

.
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Old 17 Dec 2015, 20:20 (Ref:3598450)   #41
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GT entered unfortunately.



We tend to be more and more documented here, with period originals mainly and a 1965 International Sporting Calendar issued for the 1965 season stands on my desk as Period F is the most questionnable period. However, the Brands Hatch event being registered as an International Event, then it's a fact, we are not talking about a National Event with Foreign Authorized Participation or whatever here.

We are also more than welcome to get your documentation and input if you have such period evidence, photos or whatever verified document about TVRs or any other car actually, I'm on here to follow what is happening and listen.
Interested to see those calendar pics…wasn't the contentious issue that the actual race was only a national race allbeit held during an international event! Hence on that particular occasion the car wasn't held to be competing internationally..and hence the need for the further documented race at Aspern! Anyhow all academic now …The FIA will draw a line in the sand but vary it depending on the eb and flow of the tide and who complains when the more expensive cars get beat!!

just a shame I generally am looked down upon in my little car even though it contains the most parts which actually date back to the 60's

N.
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Old 17 Dec 2015, 20:28 (Ref:3598452)   #42
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I fail to see how the FiA make money from individuals blowing large amounts of money building competitive cars . . . . at which point, most of them are brand new, so fewer originals get *******ised.

The Fia needs a draw a line alright . . . . allow replicas to have HTP's, or not.
Heres a good case in point….

https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/De...fith-400-parts

https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/De...r-griffith-fia

Again. no one other than FIA to blame for this situation. the HTP was always a way of allowing a replica to be built to a historic specification..The problem is that it seems the specification is being honed down to finite levels in time rather than a broad interpretation of the spirit of the regs being followed…

Not too fussed. I am happy slumming it.. it would be nice to think that one day though I could race at a prestige event, even if I was last!!

N.
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Old 17 Dec 2015, 21:18 (Ref:3598459)   #43
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Interested to see those calendar pics…wasn't the contentious issue that the actual race was only a national race allbeit held during an international event! Hence on that particular occasion the car wasn't held to be competing internationally..and hence the need for the further documented race at Aspern! Anyhow all academic now …The FIA will draw a line in the sand but vary it depending on the eb and flow of the tide and who complains when the more expensive cars get beat!!

just a shame I generally am looked down upon in my little car even though it contains the most parts which actually date back to the 60's

N.
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Heres a good case in point….

https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/De...fith-400-parts

https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/De...r-griffith-fia

Again. no one other than FIA to blame for this situation. the HTP was always a way of allowing a replica to be built to a historic specification..The problem is that it seems the specification is being honed down to finite levels in time rather than a broad interpretation of the spirit of the regs being followed…

Not too fussed. I am happy slumming it.. it would be nice to think that one day though I could race at a prestige event, even if I was last!!

N.
On the calendar, the whole Event was registered and that is how it worked in period, the whole thing was or wasn't but not just part of it as it is today.

And if you look at entry list the cars were all "homologated cars" as they had to comply to Period Appendix J...



For my 1965 calendar, here it is

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Old 17 Dec 2015, 21:37 (Ref:3598465)   #44
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On the calendar, the whole Event was registered and that is how it worked in period, the whole thing was or wasn't but not just part of it as it is today.

And if you look at entry list the cars were all "homologated cars" as they had to comply to Period Appendix J...



For my 1965 calendar, here it is

So the mongoose as was must also be homologated and therefore a 3rd recognised body style??
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Old 17 Dec 2015, 21:53 (Ref:3598469)   #45
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Only the style that was used by David Plumstead while the car was still complying with Appendix J. if there are photographs of that then absolutely it's a valid alternative. The fact that the best TVR preparer has chosen to replicate the Paul shape would suggest that this has been deemed the best choice.
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Old 18 Dec 2015, 04:18 (Ref:3598532)   #46
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Only the style that was used by David Plumstead while the car was still complying with Appendix J. if there are photographs of that then absolutely it's a valid alternative. The fact that the best TVR preparer has chosen to replicate the Paul shape would suggest that this has been deemed the best choice.


Also documented in early 65 with discs all round…I suspect however that the Fia would baulk at this..
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Old 18 Dec 2015, 07:50 (Ref:3598551)   #47
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At which point it would not have complied with the period Appendix J.
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Old 18 Dec 2015, 07:58 (Ref:3598553)   #48
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At which point it would not have complied with the period Appendix J.
Very true.
I won't hold my breath for a Goodwood invite. I know my place
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Old 18 Dec 2015, 10:06 (Ref:3598564)   #49
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Very true.
I won't hold my breath for a Goodwood invite. I know my place
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Huh, we all know Goodwood cars are not AppK so you stand a decent chance
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Old 18 Dec 2015, 10:32 (Ref:3598569)   #50
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I have seen before an Advert for a TVR Vixen, which alerted me as an ex owner . . . it was the cars chassis and panel work, and some running gear, less paperwork & ID . Which suggested a new modern race car was being prepared with ID and the old stuff flogged off to create an identity free, but genuine car . . . .



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