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Old 9 Apr 2007, 09:58 (Ref:1887072)   #1
Bullett
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Historic Sports Sedans race

I know there is a thread about them but having starting in 2004 I felt a fresh thread was needed.

It seem's there are a few people on here who know the location of some cars and their current situation. There is the possibility of a Historic Sports Sedan race at a big Australian Historic race meeting within 12 month's but of course it all depends on getting a reasonable grid together, the organisers are considering giving a class for this category. So IF they got a grid who would/could run? cars, driver's, etc that are out there.

Be good to see them out and not with the current car's means they get the attention...so start speaking to anyone you know who has a car and post away!
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Old 9 Apr 2007, 10:34 (Ref:1887097)   #2
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If "Historic Sports Sedans" can be recognised by promotors under an "Historic Sports Sedan Register" as part of the Australian Sports Sedan Association(s) there is plenty of scope. Self governed by the ASSA.

If Historic Sports Sedans were to go the Catrgory 5 route through the Historic Commission - it will never happen!!!

There is no way the "wood and wire wheel brigade" will ever understand - or recognise - an Historic Sports Sedan without mege grief.
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Old 9 Apr 2007, 11:03 (Ref:1887113)   #3
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So Camaroz your saying not interested?
You would prefer to just run under Australian Sports Sedan Association at a National or State level?
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Old 10 Apr 2007, 07:05 (Ref:1887705)   #4
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If we're talking historic in the strictest sense ie. like Gp C/A, then practically no car would be eligible! Don't forget that you can pretty much go crazy with a SS, including chopping it up, adding space frames, etc.

I have to agree with Camaroz. Whilst I love the idea, there would have to be a more open level of thought put into eligibility....
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Old 10 Apr 2007, 10:19 (Ref:1887840)   #5
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Originally Posted by Bullett
So Camaroz your saying not interested?
You would prefer to just run under Australian Sports Sedan Association at a National or State level?
Hi Bullett,

Yes!!!

I am most interested in Historic Sports Sedans. I am also aware of the constant changes that our cars had between races let alone years, this would make the "eligability" and "specification" impossable for the regementation of Cat 5 within the Historic Commission.

I have had many dealings with the Historic Commission and all they are interested in, and have any knowledge of, is pre 74 formula and sports cars from the Marques! Outside that you are seen a a necessary evil!

I am gaining even more experience with the CAMS and the Historic Commission with a CoD of a 1980 Group C car. Here, "Homologation Papers" issued by the FIA and ratified by CAMS can be in dispute with the Historic Commission's interpretation - today - let alone next week!

Sports Sedans were such a free category (even the BIANTE Series has gone to Spoerts Sedan Log Books to escape the Historic Commission) that to involve them would be self destructive.

For Historic Sports Sedans, get everyone together that is interested, get the cars together under the ASSA, get it going, (invites to MCM, TCF, PFtP etc) and let CAMS and the Historic Commission come to us!

In the mean time, if there are enough cars to strike up an interest with the promoter of an Historic Race Meeting they can always 'invite' a class (category) to compete.

Cheers.
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Old 10 Apr 2007, 20:50 (Ref:1888483)   #6
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You could always take another path with the AASA instead of CAMS? Always an option that is there....
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Old 10 Apr 2007, 22:03 (Ref:1888569)   #7
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How many of the older (70's & 80's) Sports Sedans are still in one piece??

Many of them were gutted to rebuild F5000's like Thommo's VW although I believe Thommo did rescue the body shell.

The AASA route would make things easier but the Wooden Wheel brigade will have to realise one day that some historic vehicles were built pre War (Iraq) and not just WW2 or Vietnam
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Old 10 Apr 2007, 22:10 (Ref:1888576)   #8
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Hi Adam,

The AASA is in my view the best option for the ASSA (no play on abreviations intended).

If the ASSA was to run its Championship in the AMRS it would be able to build itself back to a feature class (and TV)!
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Old 11 Apr 2007, 00:13 (Ref:1888650)   #9
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Spot on Camaroz, and they could also find themselves a feature at the Australian Historic Motor Festival at Winton in October each year. I use to love watching the Sports Sedans when I was a kid (back in the 80's) they were my favourite class, and in some respects still are. I remember watching some footage somewhere of a race at Calder between Barry Bray, Bob Jolly and I can't remember the other driver, it was really amazing racing back then. I will see if I can dig up the footage, I think it was on Youtube.
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Old 11 Apr 2007, 00:17 (Ref:1888656)   #10
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FOUND IT - Wouldn't it be good to see this sort of racing again!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-TdrDAV3P4
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Old 12 Apr 2007, 10:16 (Ref:1889598)   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camaroz
Hi Adam,

The AASA is in my view the best option for the ASSA (no play on abreviations intended).

If the ASSA was to run its Championship in the AMRS it would be able to build itself back to a feature class (and TV)!
I made a comment a while back and got howled down! That day is getting closer that SS MUST make a decision for it's survival and future. The costs under CAMS are out of hand and the politics extremely so-- just a huge waste of time and money . The class can self administer and should. The difficulty of programming is bad enough without then having high costs reduce your competitor numbers. SS needs to go back to basics for a National series and work with the State groups on programming to ensure when the National show comes to town they are all busting to get in. The AMRS is starting to gather some momentum-- so do not wait a year to jump on!
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Old 13 Apr 2007, 00:37 (Ref:1890102)   #12
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My impression is the current Sports Sedan competitors are pretty happy where they are at the moment. My problem with Historic Sports Sedans( I was a major mover and shaker with Camaroz in getting this going, with my marathon post on the subject), is where do we draw the line on what is Historic and what is not?
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Old 13 Apr 2007, 01:31 (Ref:1890114)   #13
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Originally Posted by Silver 3
I made a comment a while back and got howled down! That day is getting closer that SS MUST make a decision for it's survival and future. The costs under CAMS are out of hand and the politics extremely so-- just a huge waste of time and money . The class can self administer and should. The difficulty of programming is bad enough without then having high costs reduce your competitor numbers. SS needs to go back to basics for a National series and work with the State groups on programming to ensure when the National show comes to town they are all busting to get in. The AMRS is starting to gather some momentum-- so do not wait a year to jump on!
Silver 3 - do you actually own a Sports Sedan? Sports Sedans are one of the longest running CAMS catagories and I believe both CAMS and NASSA are keen for this relationship to continue. The Kerrick National Championship is fully televised and well supported. I can't see how switching to AASA will reduce costs!! I'd be keen to find out what the series entry fee is for the AMRS this year??

Sports Sedans do self govern - the new rules and current traction control debate is proof of this.

I consider myself a state level competitor but I will run the national events every chance I get, sure I'm nowhere near the front but the competition is great. The unfortunate fact is most state level competitors won't compete at national rounds because they won't win anything!!! Simple as that. I've heard it a thousand times - "why should I race there and finish 12th when at a state round I'll finish top three". SO WHAT!!! Who cares if you're racing for 1st,12th of 25th as long as the racing is good. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong but I get the feeling a lot of competitors like being a big fish in a small pond!!

It is up to the competitors to bet of their backsides and race their cars or sell them to someone who will!!! CAMS or AASA won't make a difference. (I will point out that the recent CAMS QLD championship had more sports sedan entries then the previous AASA racemeeting but I digress).

Any way back on topic - The people I know pushing Historic Sports Sedans are very determined to make it happen and all are working hard to get the catagory approved by CAMS.
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Old 13 Apr 2007, 03:46 (Ref:1890155)   #14
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Ever competed at a AASA event? Try one and you will see why they are considered better. They seem to have a completely different atmosphere

As for being cheaper, the sanction fees are less, and licence fees are less and the vehicle passports are even cheaper.
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Old 13 Apr 2007, 04:06 (Ref:1890157)   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Ronke
Ever competed at a AASA event? Try one and you will see why they are considered better. They seem to have a completely different atmosphere

As for being cheaper, the sanction fees are less, and licence fees are less and the vehicle passports are even cheaper.
Yet, your car still costs the same amount to prepare and run properly, whether it is at a AASA event or a CAMS event....... (The biggest expense out of all of them...)

AASA has given people the freedom to choose, some people like to compete under the CAMS system, others AASA and good on you for providing that option there Adam!!!! Whether AASA meetings are considered better would be surely a subjective thing and we know where your alliegences lie

Let's get back on topic eh - something about Historic Sports Sedans from memory??

Last edited by FalconEL; 13 Apr 2007 at 04:13.
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Old 13 Apr 2007, 06:47 (Ref:1890192)   #16
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something about Historic Sports Sedans from memory??
What is the definition of a Historic Sports Sedan? Has anyone defined that as yet?
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Old 13 Apr 2007, 08:47 (Ref:1890247)   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roverboy
Silver 3 - do you actually own a Sports Sedan? Sports Sedans are one of the longest running CAMS catagories and I believe both CAMS and NASSA are keen for this relationship to continue. The Kerrick National Championship is fully televised and well supported. I can't see how switching to AASA will reduce costs!! I'd be keen to find out what the series entry fee is for
.
I do not own a Sports Sedan-- I do own numerous race cars FWIW--- I read on here lots of comments from those who have no vested interest in my specific interests- and I do not believe that disqualifies them from having an opinion.
If you do not know about relative costs-- are you qualified to comment-- may not have been a bad idea to find out before jumping into print. Nothing like having your head in the sand-- how many Cams events are available to you in one year in Queensland? How many have you ever run Interstate?
One last observation for Robert Ryan-- isn't "Historic" Sports Sedan an oxymoron?
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Old 13 Apr 2007, 10:48 (Ref:1890311)   #18
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One last observation for Robert Ryan-- isn't "Historic" Sports Sedan an oxymoron?
You are right. Ricciardello's very fast Alfa was built in 1993 and their are some very "historic" bits in other cars running around at the moment.
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Old 13 Apr 2007, 21:13 (Ref:1890729)   #19
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What is the definition of a Historic Sports Sedan? Has anyone defined that as yet?
If I can start the ball rolling...

An Historic Sports Sedan is a car that has not competed for 10 years?
The car has not been up-dated in that period?
The Original owner (and/or) builder can verify its specification?
Cars are restored in spirit?
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Old 14 Apr 2007, 06:57 (Ref:1890852)   #20
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yeh I'm biased ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camaroz
If I can start the ball rolling...

An Historic Sports Sedan is a car that has not competed for 10 years?
The car has not been up-dated in that period?
The Original owner (and/or) builder can verify its specification?
Cars are restored in spirit?
Is the Dick Ward Fiat the best example? Dick has been hill climbing 'mighty mouse' over the past few years after racing numerous versions of RX7 both in Aus & in Asia.
Love to see the Fiat at speed in the AIR speed bowl again.

Last edited by cavvy; 14 Apr 2007 at 07:01.
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Old 14 Apr 2007, 20:26 (Ref:1891325)   #21
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Is the Dick Ward Fiat the best example? Dick has been hill climbing 'mighty mouse' over the past few years after racing numerous versions of RX7 both in Aus & in Asia.
Love to see the Fiat at speed in the AIR speed bowl again.
Actually my XU1 (SS) from 1980 that is in Tassie would be a good example, it is so original, I don't know if Pat has even changed the oil!!!
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Old 14 Apr 2007, 23:56 (Ref:1891462)   #22
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How about Doug Dunster's Torana from Benella way, its been around a long time and still makes the odd appearence.
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Old 16 Apr 2007, 07:50 (Ref:1892733)   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camaroz
If I can start the ball rolling...

An Historic Sports Sedan is a car that has not competed for 10 years?
The car has not been up-dated in that period?
The Original owner (and/or) builder can verify its specification?
Cars are restored in spirit?
Would that be, not competed in a Sports Sedan race for ten years?

And the emphasis should always be on enjoying old race cars, and not winning races. Presenting the cars as they originally raced (which in the case of many old SS's, would be fairly broad!), and appreciating the cars for what they are. Old Sports Sedans deserve their place in Australia's history as much as any other historic race car, probably more so than many, as most were designed, built, funded, and raced by Australians.
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Old 16 Apr 2007, 08:06 (Ref:1892745)   #24
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And (seeing as I'm on a role), as Sports Sedan races were historically all-comer races, ie, anything with a roof, why wouldn't Historic Sports Sedan rules be based on the same free spirit regulations? Why not alloy any touring cars that raced within the years you have defined (except early V8 Supercars)? Group C Touring cars were regular starters in Aussie SS races, and several raced here in NZ SS races during the '70s, as our season has always been over the summer months.

More and more 'historic' Sports Sedans, OSCA (Open Saloon Car Ass), All-comer, and Shell Sport ('70s 2 litre SS) cars are appearing in historic racing events here in NZ. There is always a place found for them.

Check out this amazing piece of wild Kiwi racing history: http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Mo...n-96186257.htm
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Old 16 Apr 2007, 08:53 (Ref:1892772)   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amonfan
How about Doug Dunster's Torana from Benella way, its been around a long time and still makes the odd appearence.
Doug was told by the Minister for War & Finance to use it or sell it hence he turned up for a race meeting at Winton last season

with new tyres as well
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