[Official] Saudi Arabian Grand Prix 2023: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 2 of 23

[GT6]

race was not a great one and them F1 made it worse with thier attempts to change the result why oh why do they continue to shoot themselves in the foot with these silly and pointless stewards penalties

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Last year the multiple zones were used to great effect by Max and Chuck…I suspect they were hoping for more of that.

Well they think it enhances the show.....

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Well they think it enhances the show.....

So does not overly penalizing Alonso.

And so did the full course Saftey instead of a VSC.

Everything about this venue is about entertainment from the lights in the sky to the action on track….certainly can appreciate criticisms against on that level.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

So does not overly penalizing Alonso.

Yeah, but some things are clearly just logical and common sense - just ''right'. DRS is just 'wrong' on so many levels - to the racing 'purists' anyway....

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Well they think it enhances the show.....

Lots of overtaking looks good....

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by E.B

The 'new evidence' precedents were confirmed by way of video evidence submitted by AM ...the Stewards were shown minutes of the latest SAC meeting and video evidence of 7 different instances where cars were touched by the jack while serving a similar penalty to the one imposed on Car 14 without being penalized.

The whole issue will be discussed at a meeting prior to the Australian GP. As for "The FIA buckling under pressure" they see it differently as in bold below.

I stand corrected. However...

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I'm glad they reversed it, but it's another mistake from stewards.

How the stewards handled this initially is still clearly a mess and how they govern that particular rule is also clearly a mess that needs to be fixed.

I will put any further comments regarding the rules mess ("working on the car") in the FIA thread which is actively discussing that topic.

Richard

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Jos Vestappen - what a classless n@b

He might not have been happy to see Max finish second, but at least he shook Perez' hand:

https://twitter.com/Ad8ya_004/status...416715776?s=20

(And for the record I don't really care about Jos either way, but at the same time I really dislike people getting dumped on for the wrong reasons.)

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

He might not have been happy to see Max finish second, but at least he shook Perez' hand:

https://twitter.com/Ad8ya_004/status...416715776?s=20

(And for the record I don't really care about Jos either way, but at the same time I really dislike people getting dumped on for the wrong reasons.)

Fair.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

He might not have been happy to see Max finish second, but at least he shook Perez' hand:

https://twitter.com/Ad8ya_004/status...416715776?s=20

(And for the record I don't really care about Jos either way, but at the same time I really dislike people getting dumped on for the wrong reasons.)

I watch that video and I see Perez offering his hand and Jos not leaving him hanging. Not Jos offering his hand to Perez first. But hey, credit to Jos for not being a 100% jerk and ignoring Perez! I would say about 70% jerk. His son is killing it. He should lighten up a bit.

Richard

[Aysedasi]

I think hands are out from both pretty much at the same time....? But whatever.....

[BTCC frog]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

In far more urgent need of attention IMO is the issue of DRS which made the race pretty much a mockery of a GP.

I think the problem is that we had a situation in 2021 where the regulations caused huge amounts of turbulent air to make it difficult to follow the car in front, and so a very powerful DRS was required to counter this problem.

Then in 2022, the cars changed to make it far easier to follow closely (an excellent move), but the DRS has been left exactly as it was with the old cars, and as a result overtaking is so easy nowadays that it is ruining the racing. Over the last two years we have had multiple occasions (Hungary, Spa, Monza last year and Jeddah this year), where the fastest driver on the grid was stuck in the midfield and was going to be fighting his way to the front, and rather than watching a series of outstanding passes and a potentially brilliant win or podium, he has just breezed pass every car with ease, and a fightback has become uninteresting.

Maybe a few more things need to change on the cars for 2024 in order to make it even easier to follow the car in front, but DRS should be scrapped entirely for next year, in my opinion. For the current year, it would be too big a change to scrap it mid-season, but considering they mess with the zones during the season all the time I don't think it would be unreasonable to halve the length of most DRS zones on the calendar right now.

[Aysedasi]

I entirely agree. (But I'd scrap it immediately)

[chillibowl]

the dirty air/close following is of course an issue, but for passing to happen there also needs to be a fairly substantial speed difference between the following car and the lead car in order to affect a pass.

now that the grid becomes closer in terms of lap times, there then has to be a concern that without DRS, the following car will not be able to achieve that speed difference required to affect a pass even against a slower leading car.

you then add in this seemingly never ending supply of street circuits with no room no flow no rhythm and you may just end up with something far more processional then we had pre DRS era.

[AndreasDavour]

This is the race that should not be, but thanks to Fernando I actually only fast forwarded the last ten laps!

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

you then add in this seemingly never ending supply of street circuits with no room no flow no rhythm and you may just end up with something far more processional then we had pre DRS era.

I appreciate it's a circular argument that's been going on for years, but DRS just isn't the answer....

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I have another issue with how the FIA treated the Alonso situation.

Previously there was a maximum time after an offence was committed that the FIA could issue a penalty for the offence. If the stewards felt that AMR committed and offence in that pit stop, then it should have been dealt with in the 35 laps that came after the offence. To just ignore it until the end, and then decide it's a penalty, is not a fair system.

I'd argue the teams have the right to know about penalties and infractions as soon as possible, so they can deal with them in the race - either by taking the penalty, or, in Fernandos case, speeding up to make a 10 second gap. To not tell the team is unfair.

I'm glad they reversed it, but it's another mistake from stewards.

Totally agree. And like Alonso said, he could have then pushed and made up that gap. Which with short notice from his team easily pulled out the 5 seconds he thought would be required. He had pace in his pocket.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by CarfanLUFC

It left me very very cold yesterday....F1 no longer feels like a motor sport series, it's just a Net flicks show....

DRS, non-sense overtakes, contrived drama, a team that cheated last season seemingly getting a 'punishment' that hasn't affected them in the slightest, stewarding chaos, rubbish track, sport washing and nothing that appeals to actual race fans.

The integrity of the sport has made way for a different demographic that just want to see silly things happen to satisfy their tiny attention span. Ridiculous

Wow this post really did complete "old man yells at cloud" bingo. well done

[Skam85]

Jos is a giant flog but it's wild we're debating a couple of stills where he has what they refer to as "resting b... face" (am I allowed to say that anymore?) but still clearly congratulates Checo and is as sportsmanlike in 'defeat' as you'd expect Jos to be.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Jos is a giant flog but it's wild we're debating a couple of stills where he has what they refer to as "resting b... face" (am I allowed to say that anymore?) but still clearly congratulates Checo and is as sportsmanlike in 'defeat' as you'd expect Jos to be.

I didn't see that on the video that the stills are taken from. He ignores Checo in moving pictures too...

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Don’t want to debate DRS, but rather just say the even though the RBs is a front running car it also absolutely seems to excel when it’s behind and it’s DRS wing is open.

And while that sucks for everyone else, I don’t think it’s right to advocate a rule change just because one team got it so much more right than others.

Just like Merc need to figure it out, all the teams need to figure out how to close the gap to RB without us advocating for a massive shift in the design rules.

When this current set of regulations was considered it was in an era when Mercedes had a distinct advantage over others because it was an engine formula. Red Bull didnt have an engine deal that worked for them and pushed for a change.
That change empasized aero because no one wanted to give up cornering speed and radically change design toward mechanical grip rather than aero generated grip. That played straight into RBR hands.
That the change tilted the advantage back toward them was almost a consequence because in the era prior to that hybrid engine they had an extreme aerodynamic advantage taking four titles in a row.

Now we have a set of regulations that amplifies the understanding and development of aerodynamic flow and downforce in minute detail.
RBR have been the best at that for 15 years, and Newey was the acknowledged guru on that before RBR grew out of Jaguar Racing.

No one should be surprised at what has happened and the advantage RBR has. They will be the most dominant team in this era. Others may get close or beat them occasionally, but I wouldn't be surprised if this current dominance lasts through 24-and 25.
What happens in 26 will depend on the way the regulations are written and what loopholes or parameters define F1 design.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I didn't see that on the video that the stills are taken from. He ignores Checo in moving pictures too...

Even the one where he shakes his hand?

[CarfanLUFC]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Wow this post really did complete "old man yells at cloud" bingo. well done

no it isn't. If you cannot see the direction F1 has moved in then I suggest you open your eyes.

I'm sure commercially it's great, the exposure it gets for the Netflicks lovers will be huge but motorsport fans who actually care about the integrity of the sport have been alienated.

All while drivers aren't allowed to express their opinions, the debate about an ear ring is bigger than the debate about racing in Saudi. If you can't see the bigger issues here I feel sorry for you. Stick to Netflicks

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Even the one where he shakes his hand?

I have now seen that one too.

To me, it looks like Checo goes to his team and everyone except for Jos makes an effort to congratulate him, with clear signs of jubilation.
On this pass, Jos 'blanks' him.

Then, Checo starts to break from the hugs and is ready to move away, at which point a few handshakes are exchanged including a reciprocal one with Jos.

Do I think Jos was upset about Checo winning - yes.
Do I think he let that feeling show - yes.
Do I think he then gave a moment of recognition - yes.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by CarfanLUFC

I'm sure commercially it's great, the exposure it gets for the Netflicks lovers will be huge but motorsport fans who actually care about the integrity of the sport have been alienated.

Why should F1 pander to 'motorsport fans' and not Netflix viewers?

And can huge exposure from Netflix not also mean those same viewers are motorsport fans?

Or does being a 'motorsport fan' and wanting commercial success for F1 have to be exclusively separate?

[steve_r]

Look - it was a terrible race, hence we have debates about weird stewarding and feisty fathers. Hopefully we get a decent race next time, and then we have something posative to discuss (although it is the Australian and Azerbijan GPs next, so we might have to wait a bit longer yet for a decent reace). There were plenty of good races last season, and hopefully we get some this time around too.