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Old 3 Aug 2021, 18:35 (Ref:4065182)   #526
WyldStallion
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WyldStallion should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridWyldStallion should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridWyldStallion should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Mike E View Post
Kyalami was on the calendar until everything went bad.

https://www.autosport.com/wec/news/r...84903/4984903/
Ah yes you are referring to the Koof.
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Old 5 Aug 2021, 01:22 (Ref:4065410)   #527
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After today's announcement in a change to the BoP for, at least, the test day here is the development of the three parameters for the three cars.

Weight (Kg)
BulletinTrackGR010 HYBRID-- 007 LMH -- ---- R13 ----
23/4/2021Spa1040 930
28/4/2021Spa1040 930
2/6/2021Portimao10661030952
5/6/2021Portimao10661030952
12/6/2021Portimao10661030952
8/7/2021Monza10661030952
4/8/2021Le Mans10661030952

Energy Allocation (MJ)
BulletinTrackGR010 HYBRID-- 007 LMH -- ---- R13 ----
23/4/2021Spa964 920
28/4/2021Spa964 920
2/6/2021Portimao962965918
5/6/2021Portimao962965918
12/6/2021Portimao962965918
8/7/2021Monza962965918
4/8/2021Le Mans962965844

Max Power (kW)
BulletinTrackGR010 HYBRID-- 007 LMH -- ---- R13 ----
23/4/2021Spa520 454
28/4/2021Spa520 454
2/6/2021Portimao515520450
5/6/2021Portimao515520450
12/6/2021Portimao515520450
8/7/2021Monza515520450
4/8/2021Le Mans515520450

It's listed by all the bulletins. Latest one I used the info in the DailySportscar and Autosport article.

Main takeaways
  • No major changes all season.
  • Latest Alpine adjustment probably doesn't affect their stint length (see Alpine thread)
  • At least for test day the LMH cars get their normal race power (520kW) rather than the previously communicated reduction of 500kW.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2021/0...or-alpine.html
https://www.autosport.com/le-mans/ne...-back/6642034/

Last edited by Adam43; 7 Aug 2021 at 13:46. Reason: Changes bolded
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Old 7 Aug 2021, 13:44 (Ref:4065726)   #528
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  • At least for test day the LMH cars get their normal race power (520kW) rather than the previously communicated reduction of 500kW.
Racecar Engineering’s article on LMH estimates that the 20kW is worth 1.6s around Le Mans and 4kmh top speed.
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Old 19 Aug 2021, 02:48 (Ref:4067640)   #529
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Toyota and Glickenhaus also think it’s worth around 1.6s per lap.
https://www.autosport.com/le-mans/ne...h-16s/6649972/
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Toyota Gazoo Racing Europe technical director Pascal Vasselon estimated "the 20kW increase is 1.6s."

Luca Ciancetti, technical director of the Podium organisation that has developed the Glickenhaus-Pipo 007 LMH, agreed with Toyota's simulations.

"I think it is in this area; more or less, I would say 1.6s is a good estimation," he said.
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Old 19 Aug 2021, 13:29 (Ref:4067768)   #530
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So basically that really makes up the bulk of the difference between LMH and P2.

I find the parity between these classes mindboggling, considering the vast power/weight advantage of LMH.

Which brings me back to what I was saying all along, if the aero package is required to be THAT inefficient, how come they still look like LMP cars with a facelift? I hope Stellantis makes a 9X8 derived Dodge Ram pickup truck just to upset everyone
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Old 23 Sep 2021, 08:22 (Ref:4075106)   #531
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It was never likely that Glickenhaus would do the races after LM but is this official now?

https://www.autohebdo.fr/actualites/...re-manche.html
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Old 23 Sep 2021, 11:19 (Ref:4075124)   #532
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It's a shame but not a surprise. Jim's been open about them not running there from the start.

They need track time more than any other Hypercar team and this would have been a double bill of running heading into the new season.
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Old 24 Sep 2021, 13:47 (Ref:4075293)   #533
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It's a shame but not a surprise. Jim's been open about them not running there from the start.

They need track time more than any other Hypercar team and this would have been a double bill of running heading into the new season.
Next thing probably is that they will complain about BOP again ...

Hard to get your car BOP'ed "correctly" if you don't run it.
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Old 24 Sep 2021, 13:50 (Ref:4075295)   #534
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Agreed. I'm a huge fan of the team and the car, but it's hard not to feel a little aggrieved by this from a fan perspective.
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Old 24 Sep 2021, 23:01 (Ref:4075332)   #535
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We have been transparent, public, and clear about our thoughts on the fairness of the BOP in the Hypercar class.
We designed, engineered, and built a LMH that met the LMH homologation requirements and performed better than the desired/predicted Le Mans lap time of 3:30.
We feel that the BOP between us and Alpine was fair, resulted in great racing and left an acceptable gap to the P2's. We also feel that the BOP of the Toyota's was unfair as evidenced by the very excessive gap to Alpine and us during the Hyperpole and the fact that even though both Toyota's had serious problems during the race they were still able to beat both Alpine and us by a large margin.
We are in cordial communication with the WEC and The ACO to address this issue and are hopeful that we can reach a solution, but we have no interest in participating in a perpetual Toyota Victory Parade and showing up to race when we don't have a fair chance to win.
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Old 25 Sep 2021, 10:05 (Ref:4075378)   #536
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To be honest, I am afraid that the BoP will not be advantageous to you if you don't show up.

Through history it seems to me cars get fairly balanced out if they race against each other at different tracks / different circumstances etc...
Cars that show up rather infrequently are harder to balance correctly, and I believe those doing the BOP regulations are rather cautious: i.e. the unkown car tends to get a disadvantage rather than an advantage.

See: Risi in IMSA.


To be fair: that's probably also what I would do. I would make a nice and fair balance with the cars I know.
If one shows up for just the races it wants to run and I have not enough information I'd rather have it running at the back instead of running away at the front.
(Of course, having it running with the pack would be my preferred option but given the lack of data, that may not be an option)
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Old 25 Sep 2021, 10:41 (Ref:4075384)   #537
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canaglia should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridcanaglia should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
My fair opinion is this: as far bop can be improved to make things more "balanced", toyota dropped about 2.5s from nowhere during hyperpole and then kept on running again on a planned slower pace both in late FP sessions and race. And I don't even think hyperpole times is 100% of toyota potential.
I honestly think that a power increase for 007 will make the car faster for sure, but toyota will remain on a different league anyhow because of awd and in general because of a better overall package that a private team/small manufacturer won't be able to match.
The only way to realistically give chances to let everyone win is to step back to bop/success ballast system of 2019-2020 with toyotas artificially made unable to win due considerable weight increase and cut of hybrd/ICE power.
But at that point it shouldn't even be called motorsport anymore to me...

Real culprit to me is ACO that afraid to lose appeal, idolized and still idolizes last or few manufacturer standing, giving it/them full power and influence about regulamentations, despite that influence will likely be the reason of failures (hypercar class was made because in late 10's a 8MJ hybrid lmp1 class wasn't sustainable anymore for toyota and other manufacturers... the same technical regs that ACO decided surrendering to audi/porsche/toyota technical diktat for advanced hybrid cars in early '10s).
It happened with audi in '00, it is still happening with toyota since 2017. When politics and economic struggles are more important than motorsport, forget to see a fair competition between manufacturers and private teams.
AWD-RWD hypercar bop is just the tip of the iceberg of a much deeper structual problem.
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Old 25 Sep 2021, 13:16 (Ref:4075399)   #538
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There is more than enough data to make a fair BOP.
The only structural problem that has to change is when AWD is allowed.
AWD should only be allowed when the track is dry not when AWD cars can run on slicks on a wet track.
Without this change RWD cars including Alpine, us and LMDh have no chance.
The rest is simple tweaking.
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Old 25 Sep 2021, 14:59 (Ref:4075409)   #539
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ok, given that to me is unlikely awd will be restricted further because of influence of toyota and peugeot/ferrari that will likely grid awd cars as well,
it seems you're considering only wet conditions, but it didn't rain for the whole 24H and toyota shown to be faster also in dry condition (not to consider how fast was during hyperpole that was dry as well).
Considering best 007 qualified in 3.25.6, in your opinion or according to simulations that your team has surely made, what's the expected improvement performance window if 007 would get more power?
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Old 25 Sep 2021, 15:22 (Ref:4075412)   #540
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ok, given that to me is unlikely awd will be restricted further because of influence of toyota and peugeot/ferrari that will likely grid awd cars as well,
it seems you're considering only wet conditions, but it didn't rain for the whole 24H and toyota shown to be faster also in dry condition (not to consider how fast was during hyperpole that was dry as well).
Considering best 007 qualified in 3.25.6, in your opinion or according to simulations that your team has surely made, what's the expected improvement performance window if 007 would get more power?
We believe that pace difference when the track is wet can be addressed with the rule change we mentioned. We also believe minor weight and power adjustments can fairly balance the rest.
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Old 26 Sep 2021, 15:55 (Ref:4075667)   #541
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We have been transparent, public, and clear about our thoughts on the fairness of the BOP in the Hypercar class.
We designed, engineered, and built a LMH that met the LMH homologation requirements and performed better than the desired/predicted Le Mans lap time of 3:30.
We feel that the BOP between us and Alpine was fair, resulted in great racing and left an acceptable gap to the P2's. We also feel that the BOP of the Toyota's was unfair as evidenced by the very excessive gap to Alpine and us during the Hyperpole and the fact that even though both Toyota's had serious problems during the race they were still able to beat both Alpine and us by a large margin.
We are in cordial communication with the WEC and The ACO to address this issue and are hopeful that we can reach a solution, but we have no interest in participating in a perpetual Toyota Victory Parade and showing up to race when we don't have a fair chance to win.
CORRECT my friend!
You should remember the old adage......''He who pays the piper, calls the tune.''
So expecting anything to change in regards the balance of performance tipped in Toyota's favor, to change, would be wishful thinking.
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Old 26 Sep 2021, 16:40 (Ref:4075676)   #542
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CORRECT my friend!
You should remember the old adage......''He who pays the piper, calls the tune.''
So expecting anything to change in regards the balance of performance tipped in Toyota's favor, to change, would be wishful thinking.
Not at all. There are a lot of things happening. I think it's very possible we'll get a fair BOP.
If we do great if not no problem as we have a lot of other mountains to climb.
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Old 26 Sep 2021, 17:57 (Ref:4075695)   #543
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tux should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridtux should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridtux should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
As amazing a job as you have done i still don't believe that privateer teams will be able to compete with the likes of Toyota, they have the people, facilities and money. Not only that but if Toyota are spending €20m on their team do you really think that they & ACO are going to let them be beat?
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Old 26 Sep 2021, 18:55 (Ref:4075718)   #544
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As amazing a job as you have done i still don't believe that privateer teams will be able to compete with the likes of Toyota, they have the people, facilities and money. Not only that but if Toyota are spending €20m on their team do you really think that they & ACO are going to let them be beat?
I do but as I said if they don't Ciao.
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Old 26 Sep 2021, 19:19 (Ref:4075726)   #545
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As amazing a job as you have done i still don't believe that privateer teams will be able to compete with the likes of Toyota, they have the people, facilities and money. Not only that but if Toyota are spending €20m on their team do you really think that they & ACO are going to let them be beat?

Budget, facilities and people aside, to me toyota real power is how can easily influence present and future ACO decisions...
but anyway, I can understand Glickenhaus point of view, me too at his place would make pressure to have a better treatment, none is happy to spend lot of money to join someone else's parade
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Old 27 Sep 2021, 08:11 (Ref:4075825)   #546
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Originally Posted by Napolis View Post
There is more than enough data to make a fair BOP.
The only structural problem that has to change is when AWD is allowed.
AWD should only be allowed when the track is dry not when AWD cars can run on slicks on a wet track.
Without this change RWD cars including Alpine, us and LMDh have no chance.
The rest is simple tweaking.
I do not want to be discrespectful, but cmon, why did Glickenhaus not built a Hybrid LMH car? Did you think that ACO would eliminate the advantages of AWD of the Toyotas? Was Toyota fool to build an AWD car when one could also win with a RWD car by persuading the ACO to ban AWD for the Hybrid LMHs?

On the other hand, MJ per stint and allowed KW is equalled out. What else do you want?

AWD has to bring advantage and so it should be.
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Old 27 Sep 2021, 14:25 (Ref:4075915)   #547
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Originally Posted by greenmachinets040 View Post
I do not want to be discrespectful, but cmon, why did Glickenhaus not built a Hybrid LMH car? Did you think that ACO would eliminate the advantages of AWD of the Toyotas? Was Toyota fool to build an AWD car when one could also win with a RWD car by persuading the ACO to ban AWD for the Hybrid LMHs?

On the other hand, MJ per stint and allowed KW is equalled out. What else do you want?

AWD has to bring advantage and so it should be.
The ACO clearly stated that this would be a BOP class and all
cars would be treated equally. Ask your question to Porsche and many others who
are building RWD Le Mans cars.
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Old 27 Sep 2021, 18:48 (Ref:4075974)   #548
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canaglia should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridcanaglia should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
guess that's the big problem, ACO said that HYP was going to be a bop class, toyota disagreed.
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Old 28 Sep 2021, 00:22 (Ref:4076021)   #549
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guess that's the big problem, ACO said that HYP was going to be a bop class, toyota disagreed.
It's going to be a fair BOP class.
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Old 28 Sep 2021, 08:39 (Ref:4076058)   #550
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GingerPixel should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridGingerPixel should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I think we all appreciate that there are a lot of factors at play here, but it's easy to see how a new privateer team who we have all been very excited by threatening to take their ball home after half a season when the only real opposition is a giant in the category leaves a slightly sour taste.

Obviously it's different from a team owners point of view, but for the spectator I think we'd all rather see you finishing second than not finishing (or starting) at all.

edit: I should add that we all want a fair class too, and that I'm sure we all want to see the Glick around for years to come when the competition is more varied

Last edited by GingerPixel; 28 Sep 2021 at 08:49.
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