[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Plus they still have the Super GT/Super Formula 2-liter turbo 4-cyl engine to possibly work from as a base.

That engine would not be wanting for grunt from the SGT races I've seen, and they would already have experience of how it handles fuel flow limits because of the success penalties.

Either way it's good to know that TMG have (had) the option to choose between turbo or not.

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Depends on when they started work on it, maybe they wanted it for 2015 but the timeframe was too short so they pushed it to 2016.

Plus they still have the Super GT/Super Formula 2-liter turbo 4-cyl engine to possibly work from as a base.

Hoping for the 2017 WRC 1.6 turbo to be heavily modified and fitted in the TS050. Isnt that their global race engine? chop chop Toyota

[knighty]

A 1.6 will not cut the mustard....they will probably share the 2.0 i4 that will also be developed for the DTM and the new japanese super formula.....they will soon realise anything bigger like a v6 will greatly impact the push to an 8mj system, hence porsche used 4 cyliders......really im gobsmacked toyota have been using such a dated high revving normally aspirated engine concept for so long......it was only a matter of time before it got exposed on the track.

[Chuliandred]

@TF110: Can you please explain to me why torque is so important for the "available" level of downforce/drag you can apply to your car? I always thought that the power transmitted through the wheels is about torque times RPM. Shouldn't they be able to overcome torque deficits by adjusting the gears and therefore the RPM at a given speed?

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by knighty

really im gobsmacked toyota have been using such a dated high revving normally aspirated engine concept for so long......it was only a matter of time before it got exposed on the track.

That is somewhat of a harsh statement considering the engine was the superior package on track less than 10 months ago!

Yes, the tide has shifted this season but it's not like Toyota has been clinging on it for years with no success, the TS040 was the superior car last year after all.

[Pandemonium]

So this is the Le Mans spec then.
https://twitter.com/Toyota_Hybrid/st...43546180788225

[cokata]

Originally Posted by Chuliandred

@TF110: Can you please explain to me why torque is so important for the "available" level of downforce/drag you can apply to your car? I always thought that the power transmitted through the wheels is about torque times RPM. Shouldn't they be able to overcome torque deficits by adjusting the gears and therefore the RPM at a given speed?

You are 100% correct. Torque alone is meaningless if you don't know the gearing. A torquier motor will rev less, and therefor will need longer gears to reach the same speed. Longer gears = Less torque, so in the end it equals out.

Now *usually* the smaller the rev range is the less peaky the power will be, or simply the bigger torquier engine will have more of it's power at lower rpm than smaller engine. But the drivers will very rarely shortshift, and even if they do the hybrid systems are more than enough powerful to saturate the available traction.

Long story short - engine torque is only half of the equation.

[cokata]

A quick post for the turbo lovers. We can all agree that Le Mans is very ICE power bound, as was proven by Porsche last year it was by far they worst track when it came to pure speed. Another example would be Audi's stomping of Toyota in 2013 at La Sarthe but it was much tighter in the WEC rounds.

If Toyota are a lot closer than they were in Spa and Silverstone we can conclude that the engine is not the issue.

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by cokata

A quick post for the turbo lovers. We can all agree that Le Mans is very ICE power bound, as was proven by Porsche last year it was by far they worst track when it came to pure speed. Another example would be Audi's stomping of Toyota in 2013 at La Sarthe but it was much tighter in the WEC rounds.

If Toyota are a lot closer than they were in Spa and Silverstone we can conclude that the engine is not the issue.

I don't think that turbo is definetively best than a N/A engine... but with actual regs, a mid sized turbo petrol engine is better than a mid sized N/A petrol engine for sure! also because I doubt that the toyota could still improve the efficency of their 3.7, while porsche can do it with their 2.0 motor.
A N/A engine with a displacement not less than 4500cc would be great

[cokata]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

I don't think that turbo is definetively best than a N/A engine...but with actual regs, a mid sized turbo petrol engine is better than a mid sized N/A petrol engine for sure! also because I doubt that the toyota could still improve the efficency of their 3.7, while porsche can do it with their 2.0 motor.
A N/A engine with a displacement not less than 4500cc would be great

In what way?

Toyota can improve their engine as much as porsche do. And i agree with you that a bigger displacement is needed.

[carbon_titanium]

it's just a matter of torque.
The 2.0L V4 turbo surely can release about 600Nm for most of the rpm range, with the torque curve fading to >500Nm close to the redline.
The 3.7L V8 don't think can release more than 525Nm, and if it does surely it will be in mid-high rpm range. At low-mid rpm there should be a huge power difference.

[Toyotats03OUS]

I think Toyota is going to shock everybody at Le Mans ,,,I made a post a month ago how Toyota might be sanbagging ,,just letting the competition think that they (Toyota )are really out of shape ,,,,I think they are going to be very fast,,,they are hiding something,,,😎😎😎😎

[bobec]

Originally Posted by Acid09

That is somewhat of a harsh statement considering the engine was the superior package on track less than 10 months ago!

Yes, the tide has shifted this season but it's not like Toyota has been clinging on it for years with no success, the TS040 was the superior car last year after all.

Arguably because the rules kept shifting in their favor against the Audi diesel engine, while Porsche were still newbies

[cokata]

Originally Posted by bobec

Arguably because the rules kept shifting in their favor against the Audi diesel engine, while Porsche were still newbies

Sure. It had nothing to do with the fact that while everyone made a step forward with their hybrid system in 2014, audi regressed.

[bobec]

Originally Posted by cokata

Sure. It had nothing to do with the fact that while everyone made a step forward with their hybrid system in 2014, audi regressed.

I don't think Audi regressed. They just made the smallest improvements to their hybrid system, but it was based on rules that changed right before Le Mans and then right after.
But maybe you can call it a "transitional period" for Audi.

[GTfour]

Originally Posted by Toyotats03OUS

I think Toyota is going to shock everybody at Le Mans ,,,I made a post a month ago how Toyota might be sanbagging ,,just letting the competition think that they (Toyota )are really out of shape ,,,,I think they are going to be very fast,,,they are hiding something,,,😎😎😎😎

True or not, I'm going with that. Knowledge not withstanding...

[cokata]

Originally Posted by bobec

I don't think Audi regressed. They just made the smallest improvements to their hybrid system, but it was based on rules that changed right before Le Mans and then right after.
But maybe you can call it a "transitional period" for Audi.

In theory in 2013 they recovered and released 3.5MJ (7x500kj), while in 2014 they were in the 2MJ class. Now it is not certain that they managed to recover the full 3.5MJ in 2013, but it was surly more than 2MJ.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Toyotats03OUS

I think Toyota is going to shock everybody at Le Mans ,,,I made a post a month ago how Toyota might be sanbagging ,,just letting the competition think that they (Toyota )are really out of shape ,,,,I think they are going to be very fast,,,they are hiding something,,,😎😎😎😎

That would be the biggest act of sandbagging in the history of racing. And for what? There's no threat of BOP adjustments shortly before Le Mans anymore so there is no reason to sandbag.

We've seen last year how Toyota personal act if they have a superior car, compare their confidence leading up to Le Mans last year with this year's statements. They know they're behind this year...everybody knows, it was clearly visible at Spa.

So don't hold your breath for some miracle to happen come race weekend, because it most likely won't. Will they be closer than at Spa? Not unlikely, but the gap has been so big that even a substantial improvement will probably not be enough to make them anything else than the third force.

So better adjust your expectations according or you'll be disappointed

With that being said, it would be kind of ironic and fitting if Toyota would somehow be able to pull off an upset win this year. They have never managed to win it when they had the fastest car..so it would be a cool twist.

Personally, what I find even more worrying is that they have not only been rather slow but also not reliable. Toyota's only half-way decent shot this year is to have a reliable car and hope that Audi & Porsche go nuts with battling each other, taking unnecessary risks. But that won't help Toyota if they can't keep their cars out of the garage either.

[bobec]

Originally Posted by cokata

In theory in 2013 they recovered and released 3.5MJ (7x500kj), while in 2014 they were in the 2MJ class. Now it is not certain that they managed to recover the full 3.5MJ in 2013, but it was surly more than 2MJ.

That would be a big surprise to me. Then why would they downgrade for 2014 (and actually become quicker)? Also, the hybrid system seems a lot quieter in the onboards in the 2013 car, while in 2014 it was very loud.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by bobec

I don't think Audi regressed. They just made the smallest improvements to their hybrid system, but it was based on rules that changed right before Le Mans and then right after.
But maybe you can call it a "transitional period" for Audi.

Since the beginning of 2015, BoP is adjusted only once in a year and that time is after Le Mans and then it is again frozen for 12 months.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

I don't think that turbo is definetively best than a N/A engine... but with actual regs, a mid sized turbo petrol engine is better than a mid sized N/A petrol engine for sure! also because I doubt that the toyota could still improve the efficency of their 3.7, while porsche can do it with their 2.0 motor.
A N/A engine with a displacement not less than 4500cc would be great

Yet many are saying the current 3.7L is already too big and heavy?

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by cokata

I agree. The aero and the hybrid are the main culprits. The hybrid system was designed with the old "hybrid recovery" zones in mind. It is great for capturing energy quickly and releasing it quickly. Back than the minimum weight was much higher and they had 6 speed boxes (a lot of weight to play with for the hybrid system).

Now the minimum weight is lower and they have to recover a lot more energy than before, and it seems that the supercap is too heavy for such applications. Still think though that their approach of not using an exhaust recovery is the correct one. It will be interesting to see how they will fare next year.

well i don't think the 'capacitor' is the culprit in a *power density* way, it could even be better than Porsche in this angle, it may be culprit in an *energy density* way,i.e., doesn't hold enough energy for kg of weight... but if could be there a battery to complement, a high voltage line auxiliary battery as foreseen in rules, power could be left to capacitor while enough juice for the 8MJ and much more(like run all engine ancillaries by electric means that could boost efficiency more than 7%), could be left to the battery... only Toyota had to do then is harvest much more... way much more...

Well matter of fact Toyota is the only engine tech that could have an 100% of the time *active* exhaust energy recuperation device.

All other techs are turbo (Porsche, Nissan, Audi) they need exhaust flow to make that turbine working... Toyota doesn't... in the case of Porsche their TIGERS only works on acceleration when the wastegate opens to control the *turbo* pressure, the other turbos would be similar, but Toyota could have an always on *exhaust alternator*...

Well engineered the ramifications would be obvious ... but will they have the budget ? or is the management about do or die in *honor* (call it stupidity) with what you got ?

[hcl123]

opps! double, sorry

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by Chuliandred

@TF110: Can you please explain to me why torque is so important for the "available" level of downforce/drag you can apply to your car? I always thought that the power transmitted through the wheels is about torque times RPM. Shouldn't they be able to overcome torque deficits by adjusting the gears and therefore the RPM at a given speed?

Because torque <-> RPM are interconnected related to load... all things equal the higher the torque the engine develops the easier to achieve higher RPM and the easier to deal with higher loads that downforce/drag implies.

Your engine might be restricted in RPM by other factors (like diesels), but the more force it puts out by unit of distance moved(work), the higher the loads it can carry with it for the same speeds and same levels of power.

[ and don't dismiss Toyota engine so quickly, it may be not turbo, but its a V8 and has quite good levels of torque ( at least 2 more power strokes per unit of time than the nearest competition) may came short compared with a turbo, nevertheless is not that weak... problem being fuel consumption and weight for compensating with hybrid power]

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by cokata

You are 100% correct. Torque alone is meaningless if you don't know the gearing. A torquier motor will rev less, and therefor will need longer gears to reach the same speed. Longer gears = Less torque, so in the end it equals out.

Now *usually* the smaller the rev range is the less peaky the power will be, or simply the bigger torquier engine will have more of it's power at lower rpm than smaller engine. But the drivers will very rarely shortshift, and even if they do the hybrid systems are more than enough powerful to saturate the available traction.

Long story short - engine torque is only half of the equation.

Depends on load

A lower toque but higher reving engine, can have rated higher levels of *power*, but if the load is high (enough) it will take more time to reach those levels of RPM and power...

Example a big truck... those diesels engines are rated up to 500hp, but are torque monsters comparatively, WEC engines are all rated above 500hp... but if you put the Porsche engine on a truck it wont move faster ( it might after 8 or 9 km of straight at full throttle), it would be instead painfully slow to get it moving instead...