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Old 3 May 2015, 05:17 (Ref:3533394)   #2526
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Originally Posted by kvenom View Post
From their Post-race Spa press release, its seems they've been caught completely off-guard by the VAG brothers pace.
Which is ridiculous when you think about it. Audi has a legendary reputation in endurance racing, and Porsche...well they have an absolutely mythical reputation and history in racing, specifically endurance racing.

After last year's season, did Toyota just expect Porsche and Audi to keel over?

Toyota SHOULD have known that Audi and Porsche would come back strong with a vengeance this year, and this is EXACTLY what has happened.

For Toyota to be surprised at the VAG brothers pace...well it makes Toyota look stupid. I have ZERO sympathy for Toyota here. This is entirely their fault for not making a radical enough change with this year's car. Whatever the reasons behind that are, budgetary or not, it doesn't matter. What matters is Toyota got complacent with this year's car relative to the VAG brothers.

From the press release, they don't sound optimistic at all about finding pace for Le Mans either. At this rate, the only way I see them of even having a chance at the podium at Le Mans is if Nissan decides to be generous, and uses their cars to perform kamikaze crashes into the Audi or Porsche LMP1s.

If I were Toyota, I would make a number of significant decisions and changes NOW.
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Old 3 May 2015, 08:49 (Ref:3533501)   #2527
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Originally Posted by Articus View Post
But was the Toyota really that bad today?
If your car after a near-perfect run loses laps to fiercely battling cars, who had penalties, (bloody) doors being blown off etc. That reminds me of Lola-Astons who looked like they could battle with the diesels during the opening laps, but finished nowhere near even those diesels that had multiple problems.
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Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel View Post
And a couple of shots from the side to highlight the differences between the two aero packages.

Low-drag LM package:


Sprint package:


(source: endurance-info.com)
Am I right in saying that Toyota ran the "sprint" package in both rounds so far? Not that there's a huge difference...

Last edited by Pandamasque; 3 May 2015 at 08:55.
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Old 3 May 2015, 13:29 (Ref:3533615)   #2528
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I fully join flyingshoppingcart in his opinion about Toyota. Don't get me wrong, I take it the team has done their best to make the best of what they have but the entire way of thinking from Toyota's headquarters in Japan, thinking they can beat two of the most experienced sportscar teams 'on a budget' is mythically daft.

It's sad for the team. I've spoken to a few of them on a number of occasions now, both with the tentenths lads and via my motorsport editing function, and they really are as passionate and ambitious as their competitors.
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Old 3 May 2015, 21:38 (Ref:3533744)   #2529
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I fully join flyingshoppingcart in his opinion about Toyota. Don't get me wrong, I take it the team has done their best to make the best of what they have but the entire way of thinking from Toyota's headquarters in Japan, thinking they can beat two of the most experienced sportscar teams 'on a budget' is mythically daft.

It's sad for the team. I've spoken to a few of them on a number of occasions now, both with the tentenths lads and via my motorsport editing function, and they really are as passionate and ambitious as their competitors.
Bloody sad if you ask me. How this isnt getting through to Toyota's top management is what baffles me. Surely they see the errors of their ways or someone's pointed this out to TMC by now? So ridiculous i dont even see a major difference in the aero packages either. Compare that to Audi that' bought a virtually different car in LM spec.
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Old 3 May 2015, 21:41 (Ref:3533745)   #2530
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well... i sensed the Toyota approach since the beginning was wait and see, an experiment on a possible advantage of hybrid boost power when ACO was saying hybrid is only to save fuel, and Diesels limited to >120Kmh for release lol... compelling them as if *invited* to commit... where all the awkward rules changes played a part... problems solved by rule decree instead of development...

Now the problem is no longer Diesel and so called big engines... a petrol turbo motorbike V4 is simply beating the crap of a 'legendary' V8... the sky is falling... and Toyota is stuck...

They were good until last season in every department except engine ( not that is not powerful, but now efficiency dictates rules, and petrol engines can't rely on the same ways of the past)... specially when the team which played a crucial part on the last championship was alll the time super committed and drivers very aggressive on track, they can only lose faith and demoralize...

So instead of blames and honor and kamikazes... what Toyota needs is a *new* car and a *new engine*, they are no longer the kings at hybrid, neither aeros neither engine(never were really, diesels were)... can't blame others so called unfair advantages forever... if past knowledge is not to discard, (Toyota had many good things), i think a blank sheet of paper is needed.

In that respect *changing* the team encompassing without the necessary redoing of the technology part is window dressing, and if on a budget they can't be serious about 'competing'... which begs the question what the heck are they thinking...
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Old 3 May 2015, 21:49 (Ref:3533751)   #2531
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Yes Toyota got beaten, but its not the end of the world and their program isn't in shambles. When you have 3 and 4 factories somebody has to finish 5th or 8th or whatever. Maybe they win Le Mans this year, then are they still terrible?

If I recall they scored some decent points at Silverstone.
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Old 3 May 2015, 21:56 (Ref:3533758)   #2532
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Toyota's problem is not the engine, it's the mediocre aero and hybrid system.
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Old 3 May 2015, 22:22 (Ref:3533774)   #2533
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Yes Toyota got beaten, but its not the end of the world and their program isn't in shambles. When you have 3 and 4 factories somebody has to finish 5th or 8th or whatever. Maybe they win Le Mans this year, then are they still terrible?

If I recall they scored some decent points at Silverstone.
As it stands they need a perfect run and as many as 6 cars to have catastrophic problems to win, because with things like punctures and penalties the VAG cars can recover the lost time even in a 6h race. That's quite a tall order.

Of course TMG has 4 weeks and about 18 wind tunnels, so who knows
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Old 3 May 2015, 22:47 (Ref:3533794)   #2534
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Toyota's problem is not the engine, it's the mediocre aero and hybrid system.
Its all the balance... and if the aeros and hybrid are no longer the best, they are not also that mediocre... the same with the engine.

So if some how a real front wing as Audi and Porsche has(a more elevated front tip), can be better, decisive for the possibility of adjustments needed for the different circuits... a turbo engine the same(possibility of energy harvesting by the wastegates like Porsche... and hybrid power solved)...
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Old 3 May 2015, 22:51 (Ref:3533796)   #2535
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Last year they had clearly better engine and aero then Porsche, but inferior hybrid system. This year they have made only minor improvements to the hybrid system and the aero, and no improvements that we know of for the engine.
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Old 3 May 2015, 22:52 (Ref:3533800)   #2536
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I really don't get this rubbishing of Toyota. They've kept themselves competitive before with limited resources by being very clever with twisting wings and extended wheel arches. While the current car doesn't have anything quite so obviously smart on it, I wouldn't put it past Toyota to pull something out of the bag. And I still think they've done something to the new car which has left them a bit in the dark.

In 2013, Toyota would have finished on the same lap as the winning car if Buemi hadn't respectfully created the photo finish. The TS030 was, on the evidence of the races before Le Mans and even the pace shown in race week, even further behind its rivals than the 2015 spec TS040.

What Toyota have is a robust car. They might be forced into taking a "tortoise" approach to Le Mans, but Porsche seem incapable of running a clean race without problems, and the Audis have become so flimsy these days that they literally have bits flaking off them.

They're still third favourites, but this rubbishing of Toyota and a complete dismissal of their chances reminds me of what people were saying about Audi before Le Mans last year. Simply being fast doesn't buy a win at Le Mans.
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Old 3 May 2015, 23:00 (Ref:3533808)   #2537
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As it stands they need a perfect run and as many as 6 cars to have catastrophic problems to win, because with things like punctures and penalties the VAG cars can recover the lost time even in a 6h race. That's quite a tall order.

Of course TMG has 4 weeks and about 18 wind tunnels, so who knows
I think Toyota is going to be much more competitive at LM... they gonna spend much more time near the front, and yes they can win... luck in problems, and others bad problems will always play a part in this race...

Nevertheless it wont change the need for a new car... an overhaul if you will ( a real overhaul)... the actual design is he same of the TS030 ( goes 3 years), it was designed with LM in mind, no wonder if its good there...
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Old 3 May 2015, 23:18 (Ref:3533817)   #2538
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Last year they had clearly better engine and aero then Porsche, but inferior hybrid system. This year they have made only minor improvements to the hybrid system and the aero, and no improvements that we know of for the engine.
Don't know about better engine than Porsche even last year... last year Porsche was enamored with making 15 laps stints at LM... they were betting on a different strategy than a motorsport turbo engine implies, cause old 4 cylinders turbo engines at F1 could easily pass the 1000 hp only by themselves.(way above the possibilities of V8 NA)
[ diesels always seemed they don't need the same *top* levels of power possibilities (never had them) to be better overall]

This year the results so far don't leave any doubt i think (don't only look at size and # cylinders)

About hybrid, i think the Toyota system is still the potentially best config (could play wonders at Audi)... now depends on how sophisticated the release is managed (differently for every single little corner of every circuit), and on the capacity of harvest(Toyota's woes for the 8MJ). So Toyota is only worst becasue is a class lower than Porsche.

About aeros, though the car is well balanced... it can't hide its design age... clearly...
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Old 3 May 2015, 23:50 (Ref:3533824)   #2539
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About aeros, though the car is well balanced... it can't hide its design age... clearly...
Im actually blown away by the Design of Audi Aero. its almost like it's the next evolution in LMP1. meanwhile Toyota looks similar to the Peugeot aero at the front. one would hope hey have some tricks up their sleeves come le-mans.
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Old 4 May 2015, 03:22 (Ref:3533864)   #2540
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From the press release they only say this

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This has been a tough event for us. We wanted to get a much better result, particularly for Kazuki. Like in Silverstone, we have shown a lap time improvement compared to last year but it has not been enough to challenge Audi and Porsche who have done an impressive job. Congratulations to Audi on a hard-fought victory. We will conduct a detailed investigation into the technical problems as well as the gap to our competitors. We will work flat-out and concentrate on the development of our Le Mans-spec car.”
Toshio Sato says nothing that indicates they were underestimating their opponents. Only a congrats to Audi on their win, a few words that they wanted to win, will investigate the electrical issues and the reason they were off pace. I doubt the LM package they ran at the Prologue is the final look. Theyll need more tooling to get that car up to the pace. But, what I see is some positives...

The high downforce car was over 3 seconds faster than last year's low-drag car even though it has a significantly lower top speed. In 2014 the top speed was 308.6kmh for both Toyota's. This year is was 301.7kmh by the #1. Obviously the lower drag cars are the way to go at Spa. Toyota didnt do this. I dont want to act like theres a specific reason, but there are advantages to holding back your low drag car. They at least now can see how fast Audi's LM spec car is and what theyre going to need to beat it. They should be very good at LM considering they were able to do 334kmh during the prologue with the low-drag car's first run.

I know some poster said Toyoda can change the board, but I said he cant change the board's minds regarding budget. Even if he did change the board, what would that accomplish? I said that because Toyota have started the new 'motorsport first' initiative, so the lmp1 program may get a shot in the arm, but you cant say Akio can say jump and they sign off a budget increase overnight. But I do believe next year that might be a different story.
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Old 4 May 2015, 06:38 (Ref:3533878)   #2541
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hcl, we are all just amateur observers (including you), I don't see how you can blame one component (engine) of the car.

My amateur observation is that Nissan started this radical aero theory and it seams that Audi is the one that also went into this direction. Last year Toyota had some aero trickery up their sleeve if they did not, they would definitely not be that dominant last year.
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Old 4 May 2015, 06:57 (Ref:3533885)   #2542
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Excuses can be made for Toyota but at the end of the day, this circuit should've suited them better than Silverstone, and they still lost to the Silverstone spec Audi, and were 3 laps off the newest Audi. You can't swing that to a positive at all.
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Old 4 May 2015, 09:51 (Ref:3533920)   #2543
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I don't know if this was posted before, but there is an interesting interview of Anthony Davidson from Sportscar Global (carried out at Spa after qualifying) giving away some information about the upcoming LM-spec car:
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SCG Understood a Private Test is scheduled for Spa prior to Le Mans Test, do Toyota have lots of developments specifically for Le Mans ?

AD We have a completely different Aero package for that one race, its quite narrowly tuned for that one race, so we can’t do what Audi are doing here by running the Le Mans package, but at a high enough level to survive round Spa. Its specifically tuned for the one track and I think that is why we are struggling a bit here because we are a bit out of the band where we need to be, we need less drag, but our Le Mans package can’t go as high as we need here. Last year we could, and we were properly optimised for this track, but arguably we did not have enough straight-line speed at Le Mans, we were over-winged for Le Mans, and if you look at the rest of 2014 particularly this race we almost optimised this race more than Le Mans. So we may suffer here, but will be a bit closer at Le Mans.

If you are within about a second away on average race pace you’re certainly in the fight at Le Mans, particularly these days with reliability paramount, last year’s attrition rate every car had a mechanical problem at some point, and the more complex the cars become the higher the chances of that happening, more than ever its less focus on pure speed and more about reliability.
So, expect a car that is specifically tailored to the LM track characteristics and, hopefully, with better performance and reliability.

We should possibly have a first look at the LM-spec car at the occasion of the upcoming Spa test on May 19th-20th.
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Old 4 May 2015, 13:50 (Ref:3533984)   #2544
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I don't know if this was posted before, but there is an interesting interview of Anthony Davidson from Sportscar Global (carried out at Spa after qualifying) giving away some information about the upcoming LM-spec car:


So, expect a car that is specifically tailored to the LM track characteristics and, hopefully, with better performance and reliability.

We should possibly have a first look at the LM-spec car at the occasion of the upcoming Spa test on May 19th-20th.
Thanks for sharing. After Spa, I am concerned about Toyota being competitive, but this gives me some hope.
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Old 4 May 2015, 19:34 (Ref:3534088)   #2545
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This is good news. Bodes well for June
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Old 4 May 2015, 20:49 (Ref:3534107)   #2546
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They said the same thing at the end of last year iirc. This season, they would focus more attention on Le Mans than the wec. I think they were speaking on the car's packages saying more time is focused on the LM spec car than the high downforce car.

Matt Fernandez has tweeted Autohebdo reports Kobayashi will be at the Spa test. Like was said over the weekend, he has twice endurance tested for them, so this should be the third.
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Old 4 May 2015, 22:03 (Ref:3534123)   #2547
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Matt Fernandez has tweeted Autohebdo reports Kobayashi will be at the Spa test. Like was said over the weekend, he has twice endurance tested for them, so this should be the third.
He best not turn that #1 to a torpedo and crash around the circuit. does anyone have an indication of his speed in WEC?
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Old 4 May 2015, 23:11 (Ref:3534137)   #2548
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If you ask me, I want a good Le Mans race, but this time I want to see Toyota winning. Audi did it several times, Porsche too in the past, and now they are newcomers. So, I think Toyota deserves a victory for their several previous attempts.

If they win, I think they will leave WEC at the end of the season.
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Old 5 May 2015, 00:12 (Ref:3534151)   #2549
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If you ask me, I want a good Le Mans race, but this time I want to see Toyota winning. Audi did it several times, Porsche too in the past, and now they are newcomers. So, I think Toyota deserves a victory for their several previous attempts.

If they win, I think they will leave WEC at the end of the season.
According to the team, Toyota has commited themselves to at least 2016.

I agree with you that it's time for them to take the second ever overall Japanese win at Le Mans home this year. I'm afraid it's gonna be a tall order however...
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Old 5 May 2015, 00:37 (Ref:3534155)   #2550
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I agree with you that it's time for them to take the second ever overall Japanese win at Le Mans home this year. I'm afraid it's gonna be a tall order however...
Although the history books don't see it this way, I think Japan had more than a hand in Audi's 2004 win...
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