Too many cars, or not enough drivers?

[Alfonso de Orleans]

From what I can tell, and I am sure most of you are aware, there seems to be a slowing down in the filling of seats in pretty much all single seater categories. Not only in England, Europe, but elsewhere. Even F1 is worrying!

What do attribute this to?

My opinion is that, yes, the economy has something to do with it, but there might be more. Could it be that there are too many categories and not enough drivers to fund their drives? Have sponsors become stingier and not help as much as in the past, if at all, or moved onto other lower cost/higher spectator sports? Could it be that since some manufacturers offer drives to some "factory" drivers, other drivers think they deserve the same and thus don't look for budgets until it's too late? Do drivers think that they will find a manager that will find them a drive or sponsors? There are definitely many sweet talkers out there that take your money, but find you nothing until it's too late to get moving for the season.

Basically, times have changed and so has the sport. How will it adapt? How will it survive? But most important, how will it offer the best service to those wanting to reach the top without the backing it needs?

[Mackmot]

I thing it is a bit of everything you mentioned Alfonso but another thing I would add is that club motorsport and historic motorsport is thriving. Many of the company directors that may have supported a driver in the past have realised that they can do it themselves.

[Alfonso de Orleans]

Interesting point. Didn't think about that one. Now that you mention it, there is a growing number of club and historic races in Spain. In Portugal, the most important championship is historic racing.

Also interesting what you mention in regards to sponsors running themselves and not young talent. That's a real pity. It could also be that young talent is not being sold properly to these potential sponsors. I have a feeling that there are too many people who call themselves managers, but only ruin the careers of some future star. Then again, good drivers are getting younger and younger and they will not have much of an idea how to sell themselves, so they need help. That's where a proper manager should step in. But there really aren't any since the good ones will only move their private jet if they see millions on the horizon. That's why you see all these pseudo managers running around, because there is a market for them. But they are abusing it.

Any suggestions?

[SFonseca]

Originally posted by Alfonso Orleans
In Portugal, the most important championship is historic racing.

You're mad Alfonso!!
But, you're talking the true...
Anyway, the problem isn't the historic racing. Many of the portuguese company directors realised that they can be drivers, so Portugal has a lot of "Cups&Trophys" without interest...

Originally posted by Alfonso Orleans
I have a feeling that there are too many people who call themselves managers, but only ruin the careers of some future star.

...another point of view.
We have a lot drivers without a manager. A good manager could be the most important thing for a sucess driver career. I guess no one can survive to motorsport jungle 'alone'.

[Don K]

Maybe it has something to do with F1 accepting drivers who don't have much high-level racing expereince?

About 10 years ago, F1 started to accept more and more drivers who didn't do F3000, but only drove in one of the major F3 championships.
Since that time, F300 has been losing more and more of their attractiveness to the drivers: Why would they try to get into F3000, when driving in a national F3 series might give you a better chance?

Since a couple of years, F1 is also excepting many drivers who haven't even raced F3.
So now it's important for young drivers, to make good results in many different series (maybe even in different regions of the world).

This may have a negative influence on the stability of the teams.
And it may have quite some negative influence on the relative importance of the remaining "major" series.
Which in turn makes it easier to (try to) promote new series towards the highest level.

So in stead of 1 or 2 series at the second highest level, we are having about 5 series each claiming to be the second best series.
Which obviously will mean that the series at that level will have to accept some drivers who really should be driving a level below that.

This means that almost any other national series can pretend to be the "feeder series into the second best series" ...

--------------------

Apart from that, we seem to be in some kind of recession.

This means that companies have less money to spend.
Which means less sponsor money.

It also means that young drivers will (on average) have less money to invest into themselves.

At the same time, improved technology might (on average) (slowly) increase the costs of racing in general.

[Alfonso de Orleans]

In regards to SFonseca, historic racing in Portugal is one of the best in Europe. Not only do they have nice cars, but they have many of them. The racing is really good. I wish it was the same in Spain :-)

In regards to managers, there exist some good managers. One example in Portugal is Starzone. But like in all sports where there is money, there will be manager that are there just to take the money off the drivers and not be of any help. That is why you probably say that there are many drivers without managers, because they know that most are not honest. It's a pity, because Portugal has many talented drivers.

Moving on...

Excellent Don K!

We seems to be moving along and slowly starting to get a better idea of what is causing the problem we find ourselves in.

Maybe now we should ask ourselves this question...what should the national Federations be doing to reduce this problem? Or do they have their hands tied by the organisers?

Whatever the solution, it should come soon or else we might find ourselves with a problem on our hands. I am not only saying it from a team point of view, but for the drivers who want to make it to the top of the sport. Many jobs and careers are at stake and although I am sure everyone will eventually find a job, is it where you really wanted to be?

[overflow]

Alfonso....it is also a huge problem here in OZ....our main race category is V8 Supercars , it takes most corporate sponsorship & media coverage....any promising drivers from single seater racing , with a few exceptions , end up in V8'S because they can't find the budget to go overseas...it's ironic that corporations won't back these kids financally when they have made record profits over rhe last 6-8 yrs....we have a lot of talent in Australia , it just needs the foresight of companies to invest in it to showcase it on the world motor racing stage...

[cybersdorf]

European single seater racing is suffering because of the decline of F1. We have strictly a step ladder system that leads yound drivers to the doorstep of F3000, Euro3000, or the Nissan series where the attitude is "take the money and run". With only a handful (or less) drives available in F1, and F1's fortunes in decline, the only way a young driver can break out of this routine is to either give up his/her single seater career and try to make a living in GTs and touring cars (as we know, this is a very instable scene that finds itself on its knees every couple of years, mostly thanks to the FIA's "F1 only" mentality), or cling to their young gun status for a few more seasons before they are considered damaged goods and replaced with another paying customer, or leave Europe.

There are too many series, and they all look the same. Also, they usually offer precious little in terms of a return on a sponsor's investment (and we can safely assume that no driver, no matter how talented, will find a drive without coughing up some cold hard cash). When did you last see a Euro3000 race on TV? - F1 is everywhere, there is no room for anything else. A strong F2 series with some involvement from manufacturers or engine builders, and a good mix of chassis, and decent media exposure would make things easier for everyone. But the FIA won't allow any racing in Europe that is even remotely a potential competitor to F1.

[Alfonso de Orleans]

Do you think that someone like Superfund (who happens to be from you city, Vienna) has the right idea in making the Euro 3000 a very marketable series with lots of TV coverage. They will supposedly, and I wish them all the luck, have many national TV stations thoughout Europe and the Middle East showing their series live this year. And when next year they will have the new chassis and 600 hp engine, it should make for a great series with prize money and good media coverage. What is your opinion on this? Will it be something that will survive among GP2 or will the FIA play hardball?

[Elton Julian]

Hi Alfonso. Here in the US things are not any better. Openwheel racing is in limbo and NASCAR is going strong or strongest. Even they are reporting problems with sponsors and at the last race they barely had a full grid. You have a very valid point about "managers" or failed racers that know a few people in the bizz and mislead new drivers that appear on the racing scene. As you know I have always had a hard time with finding sponsors and I myself was "managed" by some of those shady characters you mentioned. Less classes and some sort of real value has to be offered to sponsors in order to make it interesting. The powers that be should take a good look at the Moto GP ladder and try to offer young drivers the same kind of structure. Racing on the same weekend as F1 helps alot.

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by Alfonso Orleans
Do you think that someone like Superfund (who happens to be from you city, Vienna) has the right idea in making the Euro 3000 a very marketable series with lots of TV coverage.

(Personally, I think that Superfund may not be around long enough - remember Moneytron? - but that's only my personal opinion.)

They will supposedly, and I wish them all the luck, have many national TV stations thoughout Europe and the Middle East showing their series live this year.

"Supposedly" is the key word here. I remember the plans Tiscali had for Euro3000. And I can't see FIA allowing F3000, or GP2, to take too much coverage and therefore attention away from F1.

And when next year they will have the new chassis and 600 hp engine,

One chassis and one engine. What if Renault doesn't want to play anymore? Goodbye F3000?
Also, if the package works, won't it be a better show than F1? And then what, will the FIA make them tow trailers?

it should make for a great series with prize money and good media coverage.

Again, I am sceptical if this will actually happen.

What is your opinion on this? Will it be something that will survive among GP2 or will the FIA play hardball?

From what I have heard, GP2 will be linked even closer to F1. Wrong move. I sincerely believe it will continue to be the category where aspiring drivers' careers go up in smoke. And as long as Euro3000 uses the same formula as F3000/GP2, it won't be allowed to get a bigger share of the limelight. If you are successful in Euro3000, where do you go? - GP2. Cul de sac. Meanwhile, 12 year olds move from F3 straight to F1.

[Alfonso de Orleans]

Interesting. So what do you suggest, something like Euro F3 for young drivers who wish to reach F1 and might have the talent to reach it, but not the funds?

[Russfeld]

WEll I think there's just less money these days, but right now above F3 there's too many series. You can do Nissans, F3000, Superfund3000, and even a few guys are in Super V6 (though they'd probably be doing F3 instead).

I think it would be better in 05 if there was Super Nissans and one form of F3000. The GP2 format seems to be going in a different direction than F3000 and its specs sounds very similar to what the Nissans are running (Dallara + Renault/Nissan motor). I thikn the problem is all these series are trying to help themselves and not the sport overall, so GP2 will do things to try to hurt Nissans, F3000, etc.

[cybersdorf]

Sums it up nicely; I couldn't agree more.

Warning, what follows is a rant and does not necessarily represent the opinions of Ten-Tenths. (To be honest, it probably doesn't even represent the opinions of the poster when they aren't ranting.) And they all have no significance whatsoever. The "audience" has been preconditioned to care about F1 exclusively, and not about anything else. Because F1 is all they ever see. So what if European racing goes to the dogs, noone really gives a flying * anymore. So there was a Euro3000 race, so somebody won, but who cares. So maybe it's on TV, half an hour on some satellite channel, but nothing in the mainstream media. Say a young Swedish driver wins his first F3000 race, will they mention it on the Swedish TV prime news? Hardly. What will the papers say? Nothing, in all likelyhood. Go check the website if you can find it. It has no importance. Now go out and try to find a sponsor for this. And there are three of them. It's a bit like pro wrestling where there's a World Champion in every town. The competition is diluted, it has no credibility, success has no value. Just a price tag. F3000 isn't a series in its own right anymore, but it should be. The F.I.A. European Formula 2 Championship, how does that sound? One such series, the others would have to go. Oneseries, with its own "tour", with independent media coverage, also in the mainstream media such as national carriers. True, it would take time, the FIA would have to get them interested again, start it up from scratch. To do this, it would have to improve the product. Nay, it would have to *have* a product. There is nothing wrong with joint weekends with F1 at important venues such as Monte Carlo or Silverstone but other than that, it should have its own stand alone calendar. The 1997 F3000/GT combination wasn't bad; something like that could be done again, e.g. with the Eurropean touring cars. What is wrong with having an F3000 race at a non-F1 track? And I do believe that such a series should not be "spec". Competition between chassis and engine builders should be allowed. It may also be a good thing for the racecar manufacturers themselves. With F1 bailing out of Europe (good riddance Bernie, don't let the door hit you on the way out) there will be a vacuum of sorts which could perhaps leave some room for such a series. But I don't see it happening. I believe the FIA will rather create another International Touring Car Championship based on the DTM; because that, because it is the most similar thing to F1, and it won't ever be direct competition (different cars, right). It caters to the manufacturers, the machines are almost identical, the races are short, easy to take in for the F1-Heads, former F1 drivers like it because it is something they know, and it's a made-for-TV product. F1 meets NASCAR, and it's political as hell. The perfect habitat for FIA officials. F3000, GP2, call it what you will, they will continue to be feeders for F1. We now return you to our normal ramblings.

And yes, I am disillusioned.

[littleman]

There is no doubt that Bernie and Max have made F1 what it is today - a huge,soul-less, money spinning,commercial success.They are now so arrogant,rich and power-crazed they even believe they can force democratically elected European governments to reverse anti tobacco laws just to suit their cause! I say bugger off to the Middle and Far East,but don't expect your sophisticated Western audience to follow you.See how much the manufacturers will like that!
Bernie & Max have done absolutely nothing for the betterment of motorsport as a whole,they've simply hijacked the pinnacle of our sport and exploited it for personal gain.Whilst F1 thrives,most other single-seater categories struggle on using the money from deluded drivers who dream they will one day make it on talent alone.Reality check - it ain't going to happen and you'll spend an awful lot of money finding out.All you need to get into F1 is a year or two in FRenault/F3 and a bag full of gold.Go see Minardi,Jordan or Jaguar and you're in - don't worry about talent,nobody else does.
Until we have people at the very top(FIA),who are motivated to act in the best interests of the sport as a whole,we will continue to see the gap between F1 and everything else grow wider.Who wants to be a racing driver anymore - as usual,money and greed have eroded all trace of a once romantic and sporting notion.

[Elton Julian]

Doesn't sound too good. I would like too see the teams take more control of where they race and together demand a more uniform structure from the FIA. It is the teams that deal with the drivers and find the money to go racing every year not the FIA. If the teams could work together and decide on a more concentrated ladder to F1 they could maybe dictate their own future. Teams from F3 Euro, IT, UK etc., F3000, Nissan, FRenault...You get the idea. These teams must raise upwards of 80Million Dollars per year to go racing. That type of money goes a long way when applied to a 3 step ladder after Karting. These teams could participate in a profesional 3 level championship which feeeds it's top drivers to F1 and generates a good profit for each team. We have the same problem in Karting in the USA. All the shops, in an effort to appeal to their customers, are offering a different kart package (engine, chassis, tires). This means that everyone has a different type of kart and we have 100's of national champions every year. The grids are thin and winning the championship doesn't mean much. Like our karting shops, the european racing teams must work together and take control of their future. After all, the teams go out and get the money(from the drivers!).

[BSchneiderFan]

I think HRH (Prince Alfonso, let us not forget) hit the nail on the head initially when he said that there are simply too many series competing for a finite pool of drivers. Formula GP2 (stupid name, what was wrong with F2?) will help, especially if it kills off Dallara Nissan (as I assume it will), but I think the point made by (?) cybersdorf about it being too closely tied to F1 is also right.

Ideally, I'd like to see a multi-engine, multi-chassis Formula 2 which appears on the F2 bill for maybe half its races but has the other half as stand-alone races at tracks which F1 doesn't visit (Brands Hatch, Estoril, Brno, Pau, Zandvoort and the like).

By the way, are you THE Elton Julian? I suppose you are, in which case, warmest welcome.

[Elton Julian]

Yes, Thanks

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by Elton Julian
These teams could participate in a profesional 3 level championship which feeeds it's top drivers to F1 and generates a good profit for each team.

Why just to F1? They can't all go to F1, or spend years on end in some feeder series waiting for one-off test drives. How many paying test drivers does Minardi need? How many (serious) drives are there available in F1, per year? - The other types of racing must step out of F1's shadow, if only to create alternative means of income for teams and drivers. F1 isn't good enough anymore to justify the kind of exposure it gets. Make the other forms of racing more popular, leave them a little share of F1's vast market, give non-F1 sponsors more in return for their investment. Bigger market, more jobs, more opportunity for sponsorship. NASCAR does it...

Like our karting shops, the european racing teams must work together and take control of their future. After all, the teams go out and get the money(from the drivers!).

Hmmmm, yes... - there is extreme fragmentation in American racing at the moment, with one exception: NASCAR where not unlike the Max & Bernie Show you have strong leadership. The teams taking over may lead to more fragmentation yet (we aren't happy with one series, we set up our own).

[Alfonso de Orleans]

Hi Elton, sorry, skipped that earlier

Well, we seem to be all heading towards the consensus that there seem to be way too many championships. So what about the following questions. What would you have between karting and F1, or any other top series like DTM, CART, etc? How many championships and what type? Give me your opinion as if you were the Max and Bernie show and wanted to really find a solution to this problem.

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by Alfonso Orleans
What would you have between karting and F1, or any other top series like DTM, CART, etc?

Smaller start-up stuff like FFord, etc. (they already exist); F3; F2. That's the single seaters. And a European Touringcar Championship, an endurance series for GTs/prototypes. Finito. Clean and simple.

Give me your opinion as if you were the Max and Bernie show and wanted to really find a solution to this problem.

That's a contradiction in itself, no?

[Elton Julian]

Karting, National FFord, Euro F3, Manufacturer backed 3.0 liter single seater(F2), F1 for the great ones and a DTM style Euro Sportscar Championship (two drivers per car) with a few endurance events(4-5 drivers per car). Some kind of affiliaton to three other major single seater and sportscar championships in Japan, USA and maybe in the middle east.

[Russfeld]

I think thats racings biggest draw, and biggest enemy. Its diversity. A soccer game is a soccer game is a soccer game. The only thing that changes is the playing level. But the difference between a Formula 1 and a Formula 3 car? And I think thats where the problem comes in. You've got so many different technical formats for single seaters and tin tops. A BTCC entry cant race in the DTM and a DTM car cant run Le Mans, and a Le Mans car cant qualify at Monaco.

Bikes seems a lot better structured with basically the MotoGP ladder and the SBK system. I particularly like SBK's setup with the traveling world championships, but just enough national SBK classes to get wild card entries. In some respects SBK is more of a 'world championship' than F1. WRC has a similar format with Group N. I also like the MotoGP system of 125s and 250s. Same track, same basic race time (an hourish), the only thing that changes is the power and the competition level.

[littleman]

In a perfect world,you would expect the well being of motorsport to be entrusted to the FIA.However, as long as Bernie's man Max Mosely is at the helm, expect no change.I don't think enough people understand the control these two people exercise.They are judge,jury and executioner who let nothing grow to rival F1 as a TV spectacle.In fact history tells us they do all they can to stifle any category which may be considered a threat.Our only hope is that recent European laws,passed specifically to halt anti-competition activities,will prove to be the stimulus for others to take Max & Bernie on,at least in Europe.Bernie & Max know this is their weak spot but nobody has exploited it yet.What about you Alfonso?
I think Elton Julian has made some good points.Why don't the various teams come together and launch their own project.TV coverage is the vital ingredient and the one particular area that Bernie protects at all costs.He no longer has the sole TV Rights to all FIA sanctioned motorsport,just F1, so now is the time to bring on the competition!

[Alfonso de Orleans]