24 Hours of Winton?

[T-star]

Tell me more...is it a 'race' or a 'relay'?

[Rachel Richards]

Originally Posted by T-star

Tell me more...is it a 'race' or a 'relay'?

From the snippets that have come my way, Easter weekend 2010 is the tentative date.
Not sure about relay or race, either way it is a damm long time for an official....

Thinking back to the mid 90's there was a 24 hr relay run @ Winton a few times.
IIRC a gent named Paul Dibb was the organiser. With Pedders support ?

Whilst the 6 hr relays get good support, im not sure how well subscribed it would be as a relay ?

What about the clash with Bathurst on the same weekend ?

[V8 Fireworks]

24 hours around Winton!? It doesn't sound like the grandest and most thrilling of tracks for such a race, it's very interesting that practical priorities dominate.

[PVDA]

It's a team relay event similar to this weekends PI 6 hour relay except 4 times longer.

Teams of 6 cars usually from the same car club competing on a handicap basis rather than outright laps.

I'm hearing 10am Saturday to 10am Sunday.

No doubt we will hear more next weekend at the truck meeting at Winton.

As Rachel stated above there has been at least 6 24 hour enduro's in the late 80's/early 90's and the last couple had Pedders backing.

You'll find a Facebook group for the event if you look hard enough although it's a little light on details because they haven't worked anything out just yet.

[ForumNick]

I seem to remember a quote from an esteemed icon of our sport:

"It's like running a marathon around your cloths-hoist"

(albeit, NOT referring to Winton!)

[Rachel Richards]

Originally Posted by ForumNick

I seem to remember a quote from an esteemed icon of our sport:

"It's like running a marathon around your cloths-hoist"

(albeit, NOT referring to Winton!)

Not quite Nick.....

Whilst the aforementioned Legend did actually refer to Winton as being like running a marathon around a HILLS hoist, it didnt stop him bringing his (then 19 yr old) son down from Brisbane in very early 90's to test (learn) at Winton.

I'm sure it was in an old EB, prior to Steve running it as the Road Care Racing Falcon, (annexed to the two DJR cars of Johnson & Bowe)

There must have been a reason why Winton was chosen, despite the famous "off the cuff" swipe.....

[Amaroo Park]

I raced at the old Winton 24hr from 91 to 93. our teams best result was 2nd on handicap 30 seconds behind the winners, that was in 1992. It was a fantastic event absoultly brilliant. If they are doing it again I might have to renew my CAMS licence i think.

[Trevor]

It will be happening.

There are a large number of teams showing interest,

It will be Regualrity Relay.

Teams will consist of 10 driver and 10 cars - maximum

The National track will be used up to 5 or 6pm, then change under Safety car to the Club track for the night session till 8am when it will change back

Practice/qulaifying Friday - 10am Start Saturday, finish 10am Sunday.

A tentative entry fee of $3000 per team is being bantied around.

One club has indicated already that will enter 3 or 4 teams.

Obviously it will be run under AASA, you can use either a AASA Club Licence or a CAMS L2S licence.

Winton 24 Hour Facebook page

[Silver 3]

I think Dick's comments apply to the short track! The long circuit at Winton is an excellent place to race-it is a technical track that take a lot of learning so gets unfairly criticised because it is different.
Trev- I know the answer will be obvious but I have to ask--why use the short track at night? Surely the car congestion will make it much more difficult ?The long track allows some straights to pass etc.
Another issue--I know historically that the 6 Hour concept was successfull(is??) but do you think regularity is the best concept? I would have no issue with a team handicap(laps?) -not as many in team (say 6) and make it a race on the full circuit. I think the opportunity to race at night would be jumped at by many.

[Trevor]

I have a correction to make.

The whole event WILL be run on the longer National Track - sorry for any confusion.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

Trev- I know the answer will be obvious but I have to ask--why use the short track at night? Surely the car congestion will make it much more difficult ?The long track allows some straights to pass etc.

See my correction above - sorry

Originally Posted by Silver 3

Another issue--I know historically that the 6 Hour concept was successfull(is??) but do you think regularity is the best concept? I would have no issue with a team handicap(laps?) -not as many in team (say 6) and make it a race on the full circuit. I think the opportunity to race at night would be jumped at by many.

We are tying to attract Clubs to the event, not all clubs are speed clubs, having it as a race means that the fastest team will win, it doesn't allow for the slowest to win (which is a possiblilty). It is lot harder to be consistent than it is to just go flat out.

[NewsStalker]

The thinking that not having as a regularity doesn't allow the slowest to win is a crock of ****e. Regularities make for over complicated and, usually, very messy races because no one knows who is coming where, the specialised results are never available live - you have to wait (usually hours) for printouts and, by the time they come out, they are useless anyway.

In an event of this length you do NOT want (usually) inexperienced drivers having to think of 'what time should I be doing? Oh crap, too fast, I'll have to slow down - was that a yellow flag I just saw?' And into the misture night time racing (which is something 99% of clubg drivers do NOT have experience with (except on the freeways) and you not only over complicate it, but start making it dangerous as well.

There is nothing to stop classes being run which can take into account the 'faster' clubs/cars. And yes - the fastest team WILL win outright - but this doesn;t mean you have to recognise the outright win as distinct from the class win.

Hmmm I seem to recall talk of a race in NSW which was run on the Labour Day holiday weekend which did just this - and no one ever complained about that being run as classes and not regularity or handicap (or so I am told).

Regularity races are for historic and social meetings, not endurance events!

[Amaroo Park]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

The thinking that not having as a regularity doesn't allow the slowest to win is a crock of ****e. Regularities make for over complicated and, usually, very messy races because no one knows who is coming where, the specialised results are never available live - you have to wait (usually hours) for printouts and, by the time they come out, they are useless anyway.

In an event of this length you do NOT want (usually) inexperienced drivers having to think of 'what time should I be doing? Oh crap, too fast, I'll have to slow down - was that a yellow flag I just saw?' And into the misture night time racing (which is something 99% of clubg drivers do NOT have experience with (except on the freeways) and you not only over complicate it, but start making it dangerous as well.

There is nothing to stop classes being run which can take into account the 'faster' clubs/cars. And yes - the fastest team WILL win outright - but this doesn;t mean you have to recognise the outright win as distinct from the class win.

Hmmm I seem to recall talk of a race in NSW which was run on the Labour Day holiday weekend which did just this - and no one ever complained about that being run as classes and not regularity or handicap (or so I am told).

Regularity races are for historic and social meetings, not endurance events!

Sorry but having done the event and also doing my first ever race meeting at the 24hr I can honestly say what your saying is utter rubbish.

[Silver 3]

Far be it from me to ever being seen to agree with Newstalker --I think he has most of this right. The regularity idea as practised is rubbish-- setting laps 50% slower than your possible has more in common with a treasure hunt than a motor race.
Going to the lowest common denominator for more events is crazy. Take a realistic best lap time for any given car/driver combo and credit them the laps (by way of comparison to fastest car/team etc)could easily create an event that really excited people and produced a winner as they cross the finish line. Part of the point of such a potentially complicated race is to simplyfy it as much as possibible and make it easy to work out position every lap .
You can still have class groupings -if you choose ( hard to do if teams are of mixed types ) but to mean ideally you would cross the line and you would know how you had gone.
FWIW--today another 6 Hour regularity went to very slow lap times--and the same club has been doing that for ten years(or more) and been frequently highly placed-- and the lap times in the ridiculous category.Good luck to them for exploiting the rules -albeit pointlesssly in my opinion.
I reckon Winton is bypassing a real opportunity to do something new,different and potentially great event in the misguided idea of appealing to the lowest common denominator--why not raise the bar a little.

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

See my correction above - sorry


We are tying to attract Clubs to the event, not all clubs are speed clubs, having it as a race means that the fastest team will win, it doesn't allow for the slowest to win (which is a possiblilty). It is lot harder to be consistent than it is to just go flat out.

My apologies for so much comment on a very positive Winton iniative.
What you say is wrong-- if my suggestion above ie credit the corrected laps at the start (based on fastest possible time) then any team could win.
I have to say that it is harder to be fast than consistent( especially if you are crawling) . If you are going hard it generally produces times that are consistent --and it is still racing!

[rdmdog]

Also, dash readouts now a days can predict the lap time and effectively tell the driver to slow down if required!

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by rdmdog

Also, dash readouts now a days can predict the lap time and effectively tell the driver to slow down if required!

All timing devices, whether passive or not are banned,even GPS devices are not allowed, again get the facts before writing stuff. The AROCA 6 Hour rules are readily available on-line.

[rdmdog]

One chill pill for Trev's table please waiter.

Please excuse my ignorance, I would be more interested in more enduro races in Australia, rather than relay or Handicap events. Great for those who enjoy it, just not my cup of tea.

I would have to imagine that if all timing devices were banned it might be a little hard to tell when the 24 hours was up? Have a chuckle Trev, we all have to go back to work tomorrow

[NewsStalker]

Nice try Trev - next time get your facts right before trying to out someone. He most likely is out of touch with today - I'll ask his doctor and nurses next time I speak to them for you if you like??

Now a couple of 'facts' for you to ponder over.

So *every* competitor in the AROCA events have previous race experience? Sprints are NOT races and, as you should well know, racing another car in a club sprint usually brings down the wrath of the stewards onm one or both drivers quite often with one (or both) being sent home. So to say they have 'race track experience' is simply false. They have TRACK experience only unless they hold a competition licence and compete in open race meetings.

Similarly with night driving experience - how many 'club' drivers have night RACING experience? This, after all, a RACE regardless of how you try to place wording in the regs.

And if you - just for once - stop and read what you and I have written, you are stating yourself that the clubbies appear to have (apart from open race meetings) nothing but regularities these days. Do yourself, and the competitors a favour and give them something different instead of simply churning out the same old tired formula. Or is that too risky (or that no one knows how to these days?).

And just to confirm then that mobile phones, PDA's, watches are all totally banned and everybody is checked before they enter the track every time? I don't thnk so.

Anyway - if suggesting that you give them a race with classes instead of another <yawn> regularity is **** canning the race, so be it - but for once, open your eyes. Ever thought, or realised, that to get sponsors in these days you need to do something different and not just regurgitate old ideas?

Now - I'm off to hospital - they say laughter is the best medicine, I'm sure your 'detective skills' will make him laugh!

[Trevor]

You missed the point, it is a club event, not a State or National event.

BTW, give my best to your dad, I really do hope he is feeling better.

[B24]

Well done Winton Raceway!

I may put together a team to run in this event. Shame its not a all out race.

[MCWB]

This sounds bloody great, will be looking forward to it!

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

why use the short track at night?

There was a belief that the council permit allowed for a 24 hour event to use the shorter club circuit but not the full length National circuit but sounds like they've now sorted that out.

I think Big_Trev & NewsStalker need to get a room

The original 24 hour events had an outright as well as a handicap result and a couple of car clubs entered multiple teams and spent the whole time (& a lot of $$$) trying to beat each other on outright laps. Same happened at the 6 hour but both 6 hour relays now only recognise the handicap result and area better event as a result in my opinion.

Carrying a timing device is cheating and will be mandated and treated as such, remember this is a fun club event not a national series with a sheep staton as 1st prize We could always set up the full V8 timing loops which will show if they are slowing deliberately in the final sector. Pit to car radio comms is also banned and a couple of us with scanners have kept an eye on the air waves in the past to ensure this didn't occur.

Amaroo Park you don't need to renew your CAMS licence as the event is being run under the AASA so you will have the option of either bodies licence to compete (wonder if a CAMS 24 hour is to be announced soon like there was when the 6 hour moved to AASA in Victoria??).

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

Thanks for those positive contributors.

.[/SIZE]

I hope a few suggestions and questions are still in that category.
I have run in a Winton 6 Hour and been involved in 4 others FWIW and generally like the idea--except for the issue of working to the lowest common denominator.That is also the view of many I talk to. I reckon that you are all going to a lot of trouble to cover a lot of issues and would need a lot of policing when there is a simpler better way--allow everything ( btw radios are a very usefull safety measure-and particularly at night) and work to the highest common denominator--not the lowest as your intention is. No one is excluded that way--and you can possibly attract competitors at all levels.
Enough said - Winton needs to be congratulated for giving this much a go-- but I reckon it could be that much better.

[Bimmerhead]

I ran in a few of the AROCA races at Eastern Creek a few years ago as part of the Empowered team alongside regular poster to this forum David Towe and others. Cars had to be Log booked and drivers had to have a level 3 license - i.e. it was for real race cars driven by real race drivers. Consistency came from finding a comfortable race pace which, given the nature of the event, was probably around 9/10ths. I can tell you there was no holding back in our team - one of our cars actually melted the front brake calipers one year from using the brakes that hard!! These events were, as far as I'm concerned, the highlight of the racing season for a number of reasons, not the least of which was the mateship and friendly rivalry amongst a great bunch of like minded sports people.

I would be a little concerned if L2 license holders were let loose in a full on racing environment (that's in effect what it is) as it is quite a step up from sprints to "real" racing. Apart from that I think its a great idea - just sorry I don't have a car to compete in events like this anymore.