Turbos or NAs?

[madman16]

I think, don't Nissan have a turbo 6 in their GTR
Toyota have a supercharged 6 in Aurion in Oz.
I'm sure Honda is capable. Wasn't the old NSX a turbo 6????

[Senna05]

Werent the old F1 motors Turbo V6's?

Honda I am sure had these... sounded magnificent!

Why did the IRL move from the Turbos? Safety? Cost?

I'll watch any interesting open wheel stuff, but the "whine" the Champcars had was definitely nice to hear.

I guess in the end, they will take whatever fits into the Dallara, and whoever throws more money at them, right>?

[johntt]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

The main benefit i see in going with turbos would be keeping the Push To Pass, although on the ovals that would take alot of the skill out of it. Preferably, if they want more than one engine manufacturer they should sit down with anyone interested and see what they want. If they only want either Honda or Cosworth, than stick with whatever they were previously offering.

Please no Push to Pass and other such manufactured excitement. It takes the skill out of racing, instead of finding that extra tenth to get past the guy ahead you just push the bost button, not what racing is about imo. Its akin to having a tilting football/soccer pitch to encourage end-to-end play.

[icemachine]

Turbo V8's or 6's, its the only way to go. I'm hoping that the next chassis comes out in 2010 will essentially be a DP-01 spec although opened up to other manufacturers, and we have both Cossie and Honda as engine manufacturers.

[wills]

Honda hasn't built a turbocharged road car, but their engines have been turbocharged for racing use. The NSX V6 has been turbocharged in their GT1 LM car back in the mid 90's and also in their SuperGT car back in 03-05 with very little success. To really get the import crowd going why not get their V10 NSX engine or if turbocharged a K24/K20a hybrid?

[Xpunk75]

A Turbo Six Cylinder engine or Four Cylinder engine is the way to go to get auto companies interested. It would also give the cars a completely new sound.

[Amar7605]

6-cylinder turbo would be best. For some reason a 4-cylinder turbo doesn't sound like a top-tier formula. It just doesn't have that selling panache.

[Xpunk75]

I think with todays Technology you can make a 4 Cylinder engine with a turbo or twin turbo really powerful and make it exciting. Just my opinion

[Purist]

It just doesn't have the bang of a six or an eight. Presentation is often more important in sales than substance, unfortunately. That bigger number just sounds more impressive, and if the engine is over 2.0 litres, it's probably a better bet to go with more cylinders since that's how it normally goes with road cars.

Not to mention, performance brands are often synonymous with this: probably none moreso than Ferrari (V12s), and Porsche (flat sixes). So many fans of such marques just don't take the machinery seriously if it has something else under the cover, even after such models as the 356, 550 Spyder, Tipo 61 "Birdcage", or 750 and 860 Monza. All of them had four cylinder engines. The stigma with Maserati is less, but they're better known for straight sixes and V8s, and being Italian, there's some expectation that their really serious stuff should have a V12.

Johntt, until we have more differentiation between the cars (a non spec series really), I think the 100hp boost power-to-pass feature is a good idea on road courses. As aerodynamics and power level make the IRL cars almost unable to pass decisively on ovals, the overall similarities in most performance categories with these "spec" machines makes decisive moves in road racing extremely (perhaps unreasonably in some cases) difficult. It may not matter how good a driver is if the capabilities of his car are too close to those of all the others in the field. If the particular car has strengths and weaknesses compared to the others, that is when you can really see a virtuoso performance as the driver may be in the right situation to use his individual driving style to its full affect.

[madman16]

I know F1 is different, but you only have to look back a couple of years when Schumacher was chasing Alonso at Imola (i think) and Schuey was nearly 3 sec a lap faster and once he caught him, could do nothing. If you can't pass someone with that much of an advantage what chance have you got with one tenth?

Push-to-pass may only be a short term solution but on the road/street courses it has it's merits. Definitely no need on the ovals though

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by wills

Or how about using the LS1 Chev engine? That'll get the American fans interested for sure. Push rod V8's in a single seater could be a possiblity.

You are absolutely correct, Wills, it is a US series and once had Detroit support, and if it wants to be more than a side show with one big race, it had better offer a formula that Detroit will play with.
Detroit spends millions on NASCAR engines, that are created in-house.

Dan Gurney was the BIGGEST proponent of prod. based push-rods, but both USAC and CART refused to give him the inches cubed that would have made push-rod engines work without being tuned to hand-grenade levels.(He did manage to give Chevy its second, and final victory (not an Ilmore, or Ford Cosworth re-badged). Follmer had one back in '69.

There is nothing "modern" about "turbos", and on street cars it is not, if they need repair, but when, which is why Detroit went so far as to also use mechanical blowers in later years verses the exhaust driven ones.

Detroit was the entity that gave USAC and INDY the huge boost in the sixties when Ford came in to up-set the Offy brigade, and Dan Gurney's two second place finishes with stock-block engines gained HUGE press space.

On the road courses it was often Dan Gurney stock-block Ford, verses Mario Andretti Ford DOHC (which was built off of the Ford small-block) with Mark Dohohue and the small-block Chevy in their rear-view mirrors, NOT forgetting that Plymouth made a short lived attempt with their push-rod small block that gained one victory on the ovals, but was also a well publicized presence in the road races.

That was the day when USAC and Indianapolis were written about regularly in Hot Rod magazine and its huge readership took close notice of what went on in open wheel racing.
If open wheel racing does not do something to get its space again, in such magazines, besides Indy it is DOA.

Bob

[gttouring]

well the rules had better tighten up remeber the Penske pushrod turbo mercedes? too much power.

as far as performance fours- the Offy's and Millers always did well in the show department.
Now a stock engine (ZZ4 with turbo?) may be too simple for a top tier formula, but the DOHC cadillac 4.2 with a turbo instead of a supercharger may be a good place to look, and ford has a 4.6 which can be used... maybe destroke them or tighten up the sleeves and get them to 3.5 litres...and slap a turbo- bah-zing! production block turbo and revving to 12K durability and some useful tech infusion..
alternately why not all for mechanical supercharging as well so a team can build an engine either way- (worked well for millers for 500+miles)
and allow for one engine per weekend or penalty and one engine type per season or penalty...
(so mr. Tim Northcutt won't think of cherry picking street races with a Supercharger engine v.s turbo)

[Purist]

Bob, I think people are going to run from that saying that the cars will be too powerful with engines that big (unless you detune them to ludicrous levels), if they're as big as I'm thinking they'd be. Not to mention, others would say engines that big and heavy would ruin the handling of the cars. Aside from that, I've always liked that Indycars, in my time anyway (roughly 1990-present), have filled that middle rev range; they don't rumble (NASCAR already does that), and they don't scream (F1 already does that). They wail up around 10k-15k.

Engines aside, wasn't it the variety of courses compared to any other major series that made CART so great at its pinnacle? That was certainly what they advertised at the time.

[Purist]

To expound on my point, the original Panoz GTR-1 had a 4.5-litre, atmospheric V8 giving 600hp, with restrictors (they later went to a 6.0-litre unit). Bob, I know you despise those restrictors. So now, take that engine, take off the restrictors, and then tune it for sprint racing. Even with the 4.5-litre unit, 700-750hp should be reasonable: possibly even 800hp. If you put a supercharger on, wouldn't you be pushing 900+hp? And if you put a turbo on, you could probably push 1100hp.

Those horsepower numbers, and the top speeds that would come with them, would scare any potential insurance company away from covering a track that was holding one of your series' events.

I forgot to mention, the oversteer (rear engine) or understeer (front engine) that would be generated with these bigger, heavier engines would require a complete rework of the tires used on Indycars. And no treaded dry tires, these are purpose-built racing cars, they should run on dedicated racing tires.

[gttouring]

well purist, they need not be stock size engine- just stock blocks, a differnt crank and piston set liekly would be used.
so the current 2.65 T XFE cna likely be recreated somehow.
the magic number of 750-850 hp in champcar seems to have the best versatility in open wheel, the 1000hp of the ganassi hondas then toyotas ran about that much the Penske Mercedes turbos did well over that as well- these cars could do Wheelies! (i saw the CART race at Cicero-chicago 1 mile oval before the track was canned and they did do that- lift the front wheels off the ground in the parade laps and caution periods- it was chilling and a little mouth dropping- sprint cars are suppose to do that not INDY cars-
I will leave F1 out of the discussion at the moment- as their shrieking and aero creates a really different experience
it is like watching anime wrestling and CART/ChampCar/Indy car is like WWF
both over the top but the real understandable nature of CC/IRL makes you feel them more viscerally, F1 is just mind boggling and nuts to watch in real life.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by Purist

Bob, I think people are going to run from that saying that the cars will be too powerful with engines that big (unless you detune them to ludicrous levels), if they're as big as I'm thinking they'd be. Not to mention, others would say engines that big and heavy would ruin the handling of the cars. Aside from that, I've always liked that Indycars, in my time anyway (roughly 1990-present), have filled that middle rev range; they don't rumble (NASCAR already does that), and they don't scream (F1 already does that). They wail up around 10k-15k.

Engines aside, wasn't it the variety of courses compared to any other major series that made CART so great at its pinnacle? That was certainly what they advertised at the time.

305 in. cu. engines with two valves per cylinder, whether it is OHC or P-R is irrelevant, should make about 700 HP, give or take forty.
That is in no way too much.
The alloy block engines have been used, and also ones with iron blocks, in Indy cars for over forty years, so weight is not a problem.

Remember CART inherited the Triple Crown briefly, and THAT was what really put Indy cars on the map.
CART thrived off of inherited glory it gained from USAC. (USAC had started road racing again)
So CART came at the perfect time to not have to build a series, as the series had inherited history and inherited great drivers.
They failed to maintain what they had, when they started doing the one thing USAC was often criticized for, dinking around with the rules, while NOT maintaining the oval base that made the cars well known.
Bob
PS--off topic but USAC and super mod. sprint series rejection of rear-engined cars, was probably the greatest factor in dwindling US drivers, at least when combined with ride buying over-riding talent.

[Purist]

I'd say up to 900 wouldn't be a particular problem; however, some people definitely get nervous when cars start creeping towards 1000hp, and I'm sure that was part of why they reformulated F1 to the new V8s. The only thing is, I think you'd have to have a lower displacement limit for the blown engines. Although, I bet you could get some insane numbers out of a recreation of the Sauber-Mercedes Group C engine (5.0-litre turbo V8).

I'd say that Atlantics provides the good ladder series that Indycar needs now. Racing on dirt tracks and short-track ovals isn't exactly going to prepare you for Indy or Road America.

[2112]

Turbos diesels and veggie oil.

mmmmmm, popcorn

[mountainstar]

One thing that might want to be considered is whether the engine formula is structured around attracting car manufacturers or fans or an attempt at combining both.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

One thing that might want to be considered is whether the engine formula is structured around attracting car manufacturers or fans or an attempt at combining both.

IN the US, and drag racing is still proving this, B usually follows A, from track to track.

[Amar7605]

Right now cost-saving is probably the number one priority. IMHO, I would think that the engines would try not to have too many extra parts such as turbos or extra cylinders.

Maybe the way to go is to have 8 cylinders max and limit the horsepower to 600 hp. With that, the engines can probably be pushed to last 3 or 4 races.

[Purist]

There's not much point in that. You'll slow the cars significantly, and making things less spectacular isn't going to help draw crowds. Besides, the teams with the budget, like Penske, will spend just as much, just in different areas, and will still pound the little guys into the ground. F1 did something similar with the new V8s, but team budgets haven't gone down, and it's still VERY hard to find more than 11 teams that can afford to run.

[mountainstar]

Let's face it, the current car is both ugly and the engine sounds terrible and it is significantly slower than a champcar.

If you want to draw more than flies, you need a dynamic, interesting, great sounding engine formula. Damn the cost. If you have a cheap, soulless formula, no one will watch and no sponsors will be interested.

Really if you want to succeed you are going to have to become the antithesis of Nascar.

[gttouring]

here here!

[Teretonga]

It is chepaer to produce a good turbo, for a given power figure than try to do it using naturally aspirated engines....

The simple truth is the CART/Champcar formula using the Cosworth V8 turbo was one of the most cost efficient means of delivering a reliable 700-800 hp and still is....
I'm sure KK would be happy to provide TG a very attractive lease deal for 3-5 years while something else was worked on to bring in additional; manufacturers for the long term.