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Old 20 May 2018, 01:04 (Ref:3823470)   #16
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Originally Posted by fieldodreams79 View Post
Only problem with that theory is NASCAR peaked before the Chase.
Not true. NASCAR peaked in 2005/6(depending on who you ask), and the drop in viewership/attendance didn't begin in earnest until 2008.
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Old 20 May 2018, 01:28 (Ref:3823474)   #17
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Not true. NASCAR peaked in 2005/6(depending on who you ask), and the drop in viewership/attendance didn't begin in earnest until 2008.
Not true? Whatever. If you want to split hairs about a "plateau" of years, go right ahead, but don't try to spin the Chase being so small. THAT is not true aa it's the absolute basis of the decline.
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Old 20 May 2018, 01:50 (Ref:3823476)   #18
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Well, actually, a big part of the decline was the recession, coupled with the subsequent switch to cable networks for a lot of the races.

For a while there, starting in 2001, you knew, week-in, week-out, that most of the races (27 of 36, plus the pre-Daytona non-points event) would be on one of two stations that you were basically guaranteed to have. FOX took the season up through Sonoma/Daytona, and NBC had the rest, plus the following year's Daytona 500 every other season. Quite a few people didn't have cable then, and even fewer have it now. Once you broke their viewing habit, and many of them couldn't watch the races on the new stations, what would you expect to happen to viewership?
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Old 20 May 2018, 02:06 (Ref:3823478)   #19
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Well, actually, a big part of the decline was the recession, coupled with the subsequent switch to cable networks for a lot of the races.

For a while there, starting in 2001, you knew, week-in, week-out, that most of the races (27 of 36, plus the pre-Daytona non-points event) would be on one of two stations that you were basically guaranteed to have. FOX took the season up through Sonoma/Daytona, and NBC had the rest, plus the following year's Daytona 500 every other season. Quite a few people didn't have cable then, and even fewer have it now. Once you broke their viewing habit, and many of them couldn't watch the races on the new stations, what would you expect to happen to viewership?
Sure the recession played a role, but other series have come out as strong or stronger. Same with the TV deals but these are good points well made as there's many factors thrown in around the time of the Chase starting.

Shortly after, the removal of the 2nd Darlington race and The Rock from the schedule and adding in the cookie cutters don't help but it all starts in the early 2000s....
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Old 20 May 2018, 03:26 (Ref:3823481)   #20
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NASACR's decline has many causes but let's not forget that a major part of the problem is simply demographics. The sport has traditionally done very well with rural Southern white males. That's a shrinking (and aging) portion of the population. At the same time, the series hasn't done a good enough job of attracting fans beyond its traditional core.

Also, it didn't help that NASCAR over expanded in the 1990s and early 2000s. Too many races and race tracks with too many seats makes it more difficult to make the changes the series now needs to make.
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Old 20 May 2018, 17:06 (Ref:3823570)   #21
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NASACR's decline has many causes but let's not forget that a major part of the problem is simply demographics. The sport has traditionally done very well with rural Southern white males. That's a shrinking (and aging) portion of the population. At the same time, the series hasn't done a good enough job of attracting fans beyond its traditional core.
Stockcar racing in the south has been hit tremendously, in general, and part of this could be attributed to the population shrinking, for sure. However.....

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Also, it didn't help that NASCAR over expanded in the 1990s and early 2000s. Too many races and race tracks with too many seats makes it more difficult to make the changes the series now needs to make.
^through this (what I've referred to as nascar's "manifest destiny" in the past), they completely alienated their core fanbase, and subsequently, lost much more than they gained.
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Old 20 May 2018, 20:04 (Ref:3823597)   #22
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Southern short tracks haven't been the bread and butter of the schedule for 40-50 years though. Also, Kansas and Kentucky don't exactly seem culturally out of place.

Phoenix is apparently doing well enough that they consider the remodel to be justified. Las Vegas has the Busch brothers. And California is down to two races. I think back in the '70s, between Riverside and Ontario, they had as many as four races out there; I'd have to check if NASCAR ever visited Hanford back then.

So it seems like if there was going to be a mass alienation like that, it would have happened before even that famous CBS broadcast of the 1979 Daytona 500. And of course, the flip of the coin is that the series wouldn't have been commercially viable as a major, nationwide entity unless it did branch out significntly beyond the old South.
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Old 20 May 2018, 20:05 (Ref:3823598)   #23
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Not true? Whatever. If you want to split hairs about a "plateau" of years, go right ahead, but don't try to spin the Chase being so small. THAT is not true aa it's the absolute basis of the decline.
No it is not. The Chase has little, if anything, to do with the decline. Complaints about the Chase were incredibly uncommon until Jimmie Johnson's run of five championships was nearing it's end, when a lot of fans did the math and discovered he'd have won only one of those five had the Chase format not existed. By the time complaints about the Chase were anything notable, the decline was already well udnerway.

Complaints about the Chase are almost entirely trying to use it as a scapegoat for NASCAR's numerous other problems.
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Old 20 May 2018, 20:21 (Ref:3823600)   #24
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Originally Posted by FormulaFox View Post
No it is not. The Chase has little, if anything, to do with the decline. Complaints about the Chase were incredibly uncommon until Jimmie Johnson's run of five championships was nearing it's end, when a lot of fans did the math and discovered he'd have won only one of those five had the Chase format not existed. By the time complaints about the Chase were anything notable, the decline was already well udnerway.
Not sure where you were but amongst all the fans I knew and talked too, the reaction was an immediate disdain at the mere announcement of moving to a "playoff system". The only people that liked it were the NASCAR brass and media that was forced to pump it up. Out of the gate, no one cared for it

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Complaints about the Chase are almost entirely trying to use it as a scapegoat for NASCAR's numerous other problems.
BS. Pure BS. There's certainly many other problems as mentioned by everyone here but also mentioned by everyone else as a desired change is the Chase, but you know more than we do, obviously.
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Old 20 May 2018, 20:45 (Ref:3823612)   #25
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Not sure where you were but amongst all the fans I knew and talked too, the reaction was an immediate disdain at the mere announcement of moving to a "playoff system". The only people that liked it were the NASCAR brass and media that was forced to pump it up. Out of the gate, no one cared for it
Almost nobody in my direct circle of associates had any issue with it, but most of them didn't care about NASCAR to begin with, so not exactly a good point of comparison.

The thing is, I make it a point to look BEYOND the people in my immediate area anyway. Listening only to those you talk to regularly is effectively an echo chamber as people around you tend to share identical viewpoints. In short, never consider those around you to be an accurate measure of anything.

Unlike stage racing, the Chase was rather well-received when it debuted, with most either giving ti a thumbs up or a "wait for a few seasons and see how things develop" approach.

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BS. Pure BS. There's certainly many other problems as mentioned by everyone here but also mentioned by everyone else as a desired change is the Chase, but you know more than we do, obviously.
Not BS at all. The thing is, those of us talking here do NOT represent the majority of the viewership, not even once you take the rapid decline into account. We are but a few, and while a large chunk of this few may dislike the Chase itself,

Outside of this site, the bulk of the complaints I've seen about the Chase that have developed over the years don't even center on the Chase itself, but on how much they tried to gimmick it up and change things to get NASCAR's precious popular drivers into it with some level of consistency, which was often viewed as effectively destroying what the Chase was.

Basically, they're not upset at the CHASE, they're upset at NASCAR's fondness for gimmickry. But they all too often bottle that up into complaining about the Chase itself like it was the only gimmickry they engaged in - thus using the Chase as a scapegoat for what they ACTUALLY have an issue with.
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Old 20 May 2018, 22:15 (Ref:3823630)   #26
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Almost nobody in my direct circle of associates had any issue with it, but most of them didn't care about NASCAR to begin with, so not exactly a good point of comparison.

The thing is, I make it a point to look BEYOND the people in my immediate area anyway. Listening only to those you talk to regularly is effectively an echo chamber as people around you tend to share identical viewpoints. In short, never consider those around you to be an accurate measure of anything.
Umm, yeah I have and always talk and see things "outside my circle" so go ahead and give the underhanded insult that I'm ignorant a rest and save speeches for another day, please.

The point was, in case you missed it, is I live in the traditional stockcar country. The majority of lifelong fans aired their displeasure immediately in my circle and in this region, which at the time was the majority of fans, like it or not. Shortly after, again, to a multitude of issues, including the Chase, started leaving.

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Unlike stage racing, the Chase was rather well-received when it debuted, with most either giving ti a thumbs up or a "wait for a few seasons and see how things develop" approach.
Well received? Wrong. Not repeating my previous comments made outside my "little circle", but a small minority was in favor. Stages? An additional gimmick added to the other gimmicks. IE Chase. Get it? Probably not.

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Not BS at all. The thing is, those of us talking here do NOT represent the majority of the viewership, not even once you take the rapid decline into account. We are but a few, and while a large chunk of this few may dislike the Chase itself,

Outside of this site, the bulk of the complaints I've seen about the Chase that have developed over the years don't even center on the Chase itself, but on how much they tried to gimmick it up and change things to get NASCAR's precious popular drivers into it with some level of consistency, which was often viewed as effectively destroying what the Chase was.

Basically, they're not upset at the CHASE, they're upset at NASCAR's fondness for gimmickry. But they all too often bottle that up into complaining about the Chase itself like it was the only gimmickry they engaged in - thus using the Chase as a scapegoat for what they ACTUALLY have an issue with.
Spin it however you please. Still BS to say the Chase is not an issue at all and to call it a scapegoat. It's a part of the many problems. I'm not saying it's the main issue, but it is an issue, which you completely dance around admitting.

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Old 20 May 2018, 23:12 (Ref:3823650)   #27
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Umm, yeah I have and always talk and see things "outside my circle" so go ahead and give the underhanded insult that I'm ignorant a rest and save speeches for another day, please.

The point was, in case you missed it, is I live in the traditional stockcar country. The majority of lifelong fans aired their displeasure immediately in my circle and in this region, which at the time was the majority of fans, like it or not. Shortly after, again, to a multitude of issues, including the Chase, started leaving.


Well received? Wrong. Not repeating my previous comments made outside my "little circle", but a small minority was in favor. Stages? An additional gimmick added to the other gimmicks. IE Chase. Get it? Probably not.



Spin it however you please. Still BS to say the Chase is not an issue at all and to call it a scapegoat. It's a part of the many problems. I'm not saying it's the main issue, but it is an issue, which you completely dance around admitting.

If you honestly think the Chase was widely hated from the start, you weren't looking that far past your circle. There's no spin here at all - the Chase is being used as a scapegoat for the numerous smaller things that are what actually bother most people.
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Old 20 May 2018, 23:14 (Ref:3823651)   #28
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Getting back to the intended topic of this thread -what each of us would actually change rather than what people by and large consider to be a problem- this is what a Cup Series Camaro SHOULD look like:



Maybe with more of a widebody to make it look more racey, but far more along these lines than the current Cup cars.
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Old 20 May 2018, 23:23 (Ref:3823653)   #29
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If you honestly think the Chase was widely hated from the start, you weren't looking that far past your circle. There's no spin here at all - the Chase is being used as a scapegoat for the numerous smaller things that are what actually bother most people.
So thankful to have such open minded people in the forum that can paint others into the corners they belong!

And the other gimmicks you quoted came well after your previously decline years so your timeline is all jacked up. You are using stages, introduced 2 years ago as a scapegoat for a decline in 2008. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but Dr. Who can't figure that one out.
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Old 20 May 2018, 23:47 (Ref:3823656)   #30
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So thankful to have such open minded people in the forum that can paint others into the corners they belong!

And the other gimmicks you quoted came well after your previously decline years so your timeline is all jacked up. You are using stages, introduced 2 years ago as a scapegoat for a decline in 2008.
First of all, I'm not using stages as a reason for the decline. I'm using it as an example of something that has been genuinely widely despised from the start, whereas the Chase was not.

That said, I am well aware that the gimmicks I note most people don't like came to be AFTER the Chase was implemented. That is, after all, my entire point; The Chase predates the decline by four years, but most of the most widely hated gimmicks do not.

When you push most people to be more detailed than "The Chase" in detailing what they don't like about NASCAR, they tend to not cite any issue with the idea Chase, but the numerous gimmicks that came along AFTER the Chase was implemented - though these gimmicks are oftentimes some of the changes to how Chase positions are earned, they are far from exclusive to the complaints. "Get rid of the Chase" is frequently used as shorthand for a bunch of smaller gimmicks that are sometimes, but not always, a change that was made to the Chase subsequent to it's implementation.
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