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Old 1 Oct 2019, 14:36 (Ref:3931306)   #1
Casper
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Why Does F1 Need a Bespoke Power Unit

Why does F1 need a bespoke PU? in days past the production motors in cars were clearly were not suitable but today that is not the case as just about anyone can get huge HP out of most motors. MB can get over 400HP out of two litres and give it a warranty so why does F1 persist with a bespoke motor at a huge cost? 10 million for a years supply, really?
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Old 1 Oct 2019, 15:00 (Ref:3931310)   #2
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Have you ever thought about the possibility that MB might be able to get that result because of developments out of F1? I do not know whether that is the case but it might be.

Also, 400hp out of two litres is something different to 700+hp out of 1.6litres. And the warranty is for typical driving maybe including the occasional track day, but not full on racing.

Fuel consumption also is something that is likely very different, same is weight.

So yes, we get insanely powerful engines in street legal cars nowadays. If it were as simple as plugging that into any race car, the manufacturers would not spend the extra money just for the fun of it.
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Old 1 Oct 2019, 15:19 (Ref:3931314)   #3
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This returns us to the discussion often had in the F1 threads about road relevance and GP racing. And why Renault was adamant when the current power units were being mandated that they should be relevant to their then current production cars. They partly won the argument, with the ICEs being 1.6 litres, but lost out when it was decided that they would be V6s instead of 4 pots which is what they wanted. They had even threatened to leave F1 if they didn't get their way.
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Old 1 Oct 2019, 16:04 (Ref:3931319)   #4
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Why does F1 need a bespoke PU?
Two big ones jump out at me...

1. Because the participants want it that way.
2. It's an engineering competition as much as it is about the drivers.

But this really is a question of "What is F1?" which has no agreed upon answer. One potential answer minimizes or removes the engineering part of F1 and in that parallel universe you wouldn't need bespoke power units. Why bespoke anything? Why aren't they racing unmodified saloon cars?

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Old 1 Oct 2019, 19:10 (Ref:3931350)   #5
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The original question is a good one.Part of the answer is that the engine configuration,centre of gravity height and pattern for chassis mounting bolts are all prescribed very precisely.You might be looking for a long time to find a production engine anywhere near the required parameters.


Actually extracting the power at a similar level to the current spec engines might not be insurmountable.Back in the 80's the BMW 1.5 litre engine was giving lots of power and was based on a production block.Admittedly it ran some very peculiar fuel at times and conversely the engine management was much more basic than we currently have.


Maybe there would be some merit in the general principle that used to apply at Indianapolis where stock blocks were allowed a bit more boost.If you can actually find a 1.6 litre V6.


I do wish they would move away from the very restricted variance of weight distribution and allow some creative minds to explore something other than extracting miniscule aerodynamic gains month on month.
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Old 1 Oct 2019, 20:02 (Ref:3931356)   #6
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Less technical and more about my entertainment...the bespoke engines which are marvels of efficiency also lack the qualites which motor racing engines should have.

loud, smelly, and thirsty!

I can understand that thirsty is no longer socially acceptable but if you can match loud and smelly with affordable then i will choose that option.
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Old 1 Oct 2019, 20:31 (Ref:3931359)   #7
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OK a question ... is there a direct link between the improved efficiency and power output in an F1 engine (and the technologies required for that) and say the 2 generations old family chariot had a 2.0L engine compared to the current version with a 1.2 turbo ? giving similar if not more power, performance and fuel efficiency?

Edit I'm thinking European 2.0l 4 cylinders not US family tanks with V8s
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Old 1 Oct 2019, 20:37 (Ref:3931360)   #8
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Admittedly it ran some very peculiar fuel at times
Peculiar, I like that term.

Fuel today isn't really something you want regular physical contact with, even in road cars. The "super exotic" fuels used in the 80s were bonkers - mixed with toluene, benzene and a heap of other aromatic hydrocarbons along with all sorts of other nasties.

Carcinogenic, toxic - even the exhaust fumes. So let's please not go back there!

1000hp on a teaspoon of what's almost ordinary pump fuel for 200 miles. That's why F1 needs bespoke power units.
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Old 1 Oct 2019, 21:52 (Ref:3931373)   #9
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Carcinogenic, toxic - even the exhaust fumes. So let's please not go back there!
Yeah fair point. I was more just thinking about myself/my own entertainment sitting up in the stands and not from the point of view of those working much closer to them.
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Old 2 Oct 2019, 04:07 (Ref:3931395)   #10
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Originally Posted by Kempi View Post
Have you ever thought about the possibility that MB might be able to get that result because of developments out of F1? I do not know whether that is the case but it might be.

Also, 400hp out of two litres is something different to 700+hp out of 1.6litres. And the warranty is for typical driving maybe including the occasional track day, but not full on racing.

Fuel consumption also is something that is likely very different, same is weight.

So yes, we get insanely powerful engines in street legal cars nowadays. If it were as simple as plugging that into any race car, the manufacturers would not spend the extra money just for the fun of it.
There are Honda 4 cylinder motors out there producing way more than 700 BHP. The only reason I can think of that genuinely stacks up is tradition, nothing more than that.
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Old 2 Oct 2019, 05:51 (Ref:3931400)   #11
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Originally Posted by Casper View Post
Why does F1 need a bespoke PU? in days past the production motors in cars were clearly were not suitable but today that is not the case as just about anyone can get huge HP out of most motors. MB can get over 400HP out of two litres and give it a warranty so why does F1 persist with a bespoke motor at a huge cost? 10 million for a years supply, really?
And why are those production engines as powerfull as they are today?

maybe because of all the R&D the manufaturers are doing in F1 and other motorsports?
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Old 2 Oct 2019, 11:34 (Ref:3931445)   #12
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And why are those production engines as powerfull as they are today?

maybe because of all the R&D the manufaturers are doing in F1 and other motorsports?
So teams like Racing Point and Williams have to shell out tens of millions ( a huge chunk of their annual budget) every year in order that 3 engine manufacturers can have subsidised R&D? Seems a bit of a strange situation.

The OP asks a very good question. The change to hybrid engines is a good idea in theory, but the costs are ridiculous when compared with the older "normal" units.
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Old 2 Oct 2019, 12:18 (Ref:3931456)   #13
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I think OP asked the wrong question (he does however briefly touch upon it). The real question should be...

Why do bespoke F1 engines cost so much?

The answer IMHO is twofold.

1. Unregulated cost to customers (or if I am wrong, and it is regulated then the cost is set too high).
2. Complex technical regulations (which is what the manufactures wanted).

My memory may fail me, but at the end of the recent V8 era, the engine manufactures were effectively bored. The engines were relatively simple (compared to today) and had good performance parity. It was hard for a single supplier to stand out from a performance perspective from the others. In short... spending lots of money was not going to give you much of an edge.

We could still have bespoke engines that are cost effective. But everyone wouldn't be happy (i.e. teams that have a handle on the current complex solutions such as Mercedes and Ferrari)

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Old 2 Oct 2019, 16:11 (Ref:3931511)   #14
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Why does F1 need a bespoke chassis?
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Old 2 Oct 2019, 17:03 (Ref:3931518)   #15
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My quick improvements would be -



- calling what's in the back of an F1 car an engine , not a PU



- reminding the ostriches who run the sport,and the manufacturers, that any links between F1 and road cars are tenuous at best and delusional at worst



- suggest to the ostriches that if they want to give a message about racing improving the breed it might be an idea to use tyres that aren't knackered in less time than it takes me to drink a mug of tea



- relax rules to allow different engine layouts and single car teams . If you are fast enough you are in - and that is to a 30 car grid BTW
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Old 2 Oct 2019, 21:31 (Ref:3931592)   #16
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My quick improvements would be -



- calling what's in the back of an F1 car an engine , not a PU



- reminding the ostriches who run the sport,and the manufacturers, that any links between F1 and road cars are tenuous at best and delusional at worst



- suggest to the ostriches that if they want to give a message about racing improving the breed it might be an idea to use tyres that aren't knackered in less time than it takes me to drink a mug of tea



- relax rules to allow different engine layouts and single car teams . If you are fast enough you are in - and that is to a 30 car grid BTW
The link between the race car and the street car isn't the parts it's the branding. It's also the ideas and the ability to play AND get the beancounters approval for the engineers' fun.

The tires bit has bothered me since they decided to be "more efficient" but then use tires that last seconds. Seems like requiring thousands of tires per weekend is more wasteful not efficient.

The rules being relaxed would last about 1 season and everyone would have the same answer to the puzzle. It doesn't work any longer to have the open rules, the money and costs are too high without the high profit sponsors of tobacco. Everyone knows what goes fast now, suddenly opening the rules wouldn't mean a variety of cars, styles, engines. The engineer would have the answer and math is the same for everyone. The only differences would be forced on them by marketing, see WEC LMP1 before it imploded. The engine choices were made by the boardroom not the engineers.
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Old 3 Oct 2019, 00:04 (Ref:3931603)   #17
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Here is the how to fix F1 thread:

https://tentenths.com/forum/showthre...&highlight=Fix

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