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Old 24 Oct 2019, 10:46 (Ref:3936541)   #126
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Originally Posted by Adam43 View Post
5 is that it was legal with the specific reg about brakes, but not with the overall driver aid rule. The driver aid rule is designed to be used exactly like this. Otherwise you have to write even more specific rules and think of all the “loop holes” beforehand. Which is, of course, impossible.

For 6 they compared to previous breaches of the driver aid rule. What are the differences and benefits of these?
This has always frustrated me with any rule-making body, be it sports or politics or whatever. (Promise I'm not getting political). They make rules, those get exploited with loopholes or unintended consequences. So, they like on more rules, while keeping the flawed first rule. Then it happens again. And again. Until they have so many rules/laws in place that they contradict each other, leading the most clever to exploit loopholes or use the rules to their advantage until further clarifications happen. But none of these rules are stripped down upon new information being made available, just more rules tacked on. So you end up with situations like this, where you're compliant in one way, but not another, and the only way for this to not happen is for all solutions to be known beforehand. Which, if we had that, teams would already be there, and this would all be pretty boring and pointless.
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Old 24 Oct 2019, 10:53 (Ref:3936543)   #127
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DQs in F1 are rare thankfully, however if it's clear breach of the rules than it should be punished like that. Bad luck for Renault, but they should be more careful in future
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Old 24 Oct 2019, 11:42 (Ref:3936553)   #128
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I understand the system to change the brake balance automatically depending on where the car is on the track. This would be similar to throttle mapping changing automatically depending on track location.

Seeing it like that, to me it definitely is a driver's aid. I am just amazed how the FIA manages time and again to screw up their rulemaking. Probably all the tech regs need to be rewritten to more generically address the effect the governing body wants to achieve than to address specific solutions.

Technology neutral regulation is always more effective than technology specific regulation. It is not as black and white but FIA decision making has never been black and white while they suggest their rules are. Time to synchronize the two.
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Old 24 Oct 2019, 15:31 (Ref:3936584)   #129
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This has always frustrated me with any rule-making body, be it sports or politics or whatever. (Promise I'm not getting political). They make rules, those get exploited with loopholes or unintended consequences. So, they like on more rules, while keeping the flawed first rule. Then it happens again. And again. Until they have so many rules/laws in place that they contradict each other, leading the most clever to exploit loopholes or use the rules to their advantage until further clarifications happen. But none of these rules are stripped down upon new information being made available, just more rules tacked on. So you end up with situations like this, where you're compliant in one way, but not another, and the only way for this to not happen is for all solutions to be known beforehand. Which, if we had that, teams would already be there, and this would all be pretty boring and pointless.
I think it is for this reason why we have the driver aid methodology in the rules.

You can draw boxes around what is allowed, but it is proven and accepted that there are 10 teams and many people trying to fight it and they will find a way. However over years we had the direction from the fans that they didn't want driver aids. Hence specific rules on specific areas, but also an over arching rule.

Don't have it and when something comes up there is outrage of another sort.

All the details are not presented and there are other parts of the solution, if revealed, would spill the beans on Renaults tech. to other teams. From what I can see I wouldn't have implemented a DSQ in this case, rather just asked Renault to stop using it in this way for the next race. However, I accept that I haven't read everything I could on this and even if I did may be missing things.
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Old 24 Oct 2019, 17:16 (Ref:3936597)   #130
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Racing Point still has an opportunity to overhaul Renault in the constructors...more so now as Renault have lost their Japan points so i can see why they have a claim to want a harsher punishment.

i suppose STR are also in position to do so but i dont think they complained about it...which probably means that they and RB are pulling the same trick.

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Isn’t there a beep in the driver’s ear when they can activate it?
i suppose i have to settle with being outraged at that...its the little things!

i know this is neither here nor there, but if the flap doesnt activate automatically then shouldn't we hear more comments about drivers who are either really spot on at opening the flap at the exact right moment or about drivers who are really really brave at pushing the DRS window for that much longer.

surely this is a skill that should be talked about more right? i think the lack of anyone ever talking about is probably why i thought it was all automatic in the first place.

that or i really do not understand how drs works.
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Old 24 Oct 2019, 18:08 (Ref:3936604)   #131
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I think it is for this reason why we have the driver aid methodology in the rules.

You can draw boxes around what is allowed, but it is proven and accepted that there are 10 teams and many people trying to fight it and they will find a way. However over years we had the direction from the fans that they didn't want driver aids. Hence specific rules on specific areas, but also an over arching rule.

Don't have it and when something comes up there is outrage of another sort.

All the details are not presented and there are other parts of the solution, if revealed, would spill the beans on Renaults tech. to other teams. From what I can see I wouldn't have implemented a DSQ in this case, rather just asked Renault to stop using it in this way for the next race. However, I accept that I haven't read everything I could on this and even if I did may be missing things.
Very much agree with this. The sport does need some level of catch all rules that they can apply when things slip through the cracks. Many will say that the "spirit of the rules" does not exist. That only the actual rules exist. I agree, but do think the catch all rules exist to step in when the "spirit of the rules" have been somehow broken. The problem is that where the line is with respect to the "spirit of the rules" is always fuzzy. I assume Renault thought this would NOT get them into trouble.

The downside is that you get ruling like this. In which someone found something creative, thought the solution was legal and then get slapped down. Best to look at it as just part of the cost to play in F1. Sometimes you are the bug and sometimes the windshield!

As to maybe allowing the results to stand, but to be told "no go next time" creates it's own problems (i.e. "If the results can stand, why can't they keep using it? Clearly it's illegal if they have to stop!!!" Oh the outrage).

And as you say, all details are not published (and never will be). So we are all second guessing with less that complete facts.

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Old 24 Oct 2019, 19:26 (Ref:3936612)   #132
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Renault have decided not to appeal.

https://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/146741
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Old 24 Oct 2019, 22:07 (Ref:3936631)   #133
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There's now a very real chance that Renault could finish as low as 7th in the constructor's.
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Old 25 Oct 2019, 04:47 (Ref:3936650)   #134
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Technically everything on an F1 car is a driver aid to make the car go faster.....
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Old 25 Oct 2019, 05:31 (Ref:3936653)   #135
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Technically everything on an F1 car is a driver aid to make the car go faster.....
Precisely!

Can we start on paddle shifts and auto clutching gearboxes?
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Old 25 Oct 2019, 09:23 (Ref:3936666)   #136
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Originally Posted by RWill2073 View Post
This has always frustrated me with any rule-making body, be it sports or politics or whatever. (Promise I'm not getting political). They make rules, those get exploited with loopholes or unintended consequences. So, they like on more rules, while keeping the flawed first rule. Then it happens again. And again. Until they have so many rules/laws in place that they contradict each other, leading the most clever to exploit loopholes or use the rules to their advantage until further clarifications happen. But none of these rules are stripped down upon new information being made available, just more rules tacked on. So you end up with situations like this, where you're compliant in one way, but not another, and the only way for this to not happen is for all solutions to be known beforehand. Which, if we had that, teams would already be there, and this would all be pretty boring and pointless.
In national laws, ambiguity and contradiction are essential. Otherwise there would be very little need for solicitors and barristers. Then they would have to take much less well-paid jobs and actually contribute something useful to society.
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Old 25 Oct 2019, 15:45 (Ref:3936731)   #137
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In national laws, ambiguity and contradiction are essential. Otherwise there would be very little need for solicitors and barristers. Then they would have to take much less well-paid jobs and actually contribute something useful to society.
Haha, hence the frustration.....
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Old 26 Oct 2019, 13:35 (Ref:3936884)   #138
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In national laws, ambiguity and contradiction are essential. Otherwise there would be very little need for solicitors and barristers. Then they would have to take much less well-paid jobs and actually contribute something useful to society.
Yeah, they could become actors in soaps or reality tv stars.....

Most 'jobbing' lawyers, particularly those who represent petty criminals (and some less petty ones) in courts up and down the land day in, day out are a far cry from the fat cats that most people normally visualise when they think of solicitors and barristers. There will always be a great need for lawyers for these situations. As always, sweeping generalisations aren't always accurate....
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Old 26 Oct 2019, 13:39 (Ref:3936885)   #139
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In the aftermath of Renault's DSQ, Cyril Abiteboul believes the rules regarding driver aids are "not fit for the purpose of the modern F1 car". Article 27.1, states "the driver must drive the car alone and unaided". According to Abiteboul, this allows too much subjectivity, given the various elements current cars have that inherently assist the driver.

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/146789
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Old 30 Oct 2019, 22:48 (Ref:3937733)   #140
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Seems to me that he has a point there. With all the gadgetry on cars for a couple of decades now, the rule probably is rather ambiguous & open to a wide tranch of interpretation.
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Old 31 Oct 2019, 08:50 (Ref:3937771)   #141
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I think it would help if they made it clearer what is a driver aid and what isn't. Then we would have less of a grey area
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Old 31 Oct 2019, 14:43 (Ref:3937807)   #142
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nothing stops a team from asking for a clarification though. if i am correct about the timeline, this started with RP asking for a clarification either about what Renault were doing or because they wanted to know if they could develop along those lines as well.

playing devil's advocate a bit here...but perhaps Renault were intentionally looking for performance within the grey areas and they just got caught.

i get Abiteboul's point and maybe he is correct that teams should not be sniping at each other like this and the the rules body should be constantly checking the legality of the cars without the need for a team to instigate such investigations.

but the unspoken part of his statement (or flip side of it) is that under the current rules (however antiquated he thinks they are) if Renault were working on an area 'based on speculation, on imagination' then surely this is more a reason why Renault should have sought out clarification prior to following/applying this development path.

anyways Renault is a desperate team at the moment.
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