New FIA Formula Two series for 2009!!

[the sniper]

I have had a quick read though the F2 regulations. I have to say I am really disappointed, not only is it another single make formula but this one shakes the foundations on which Formula racing is built upon.

Here are some quotes from the invitation to tender.

The PROVIDER undertakes to paint the areas of the visible surface of the PRODUCT (and any spare parts) that are allocated to the COMPETITORS in a neutral manner. At each OFFICIAL TESTING and EVENT, the COMPETITORS will then be permitted to add stickers containing the branding of their own sponsors to these sections of the car provided always that such stickers are removed on completion of the relevant OFFICIAL TESTING or EVENT and the PRODUCT is returned to the PROVIDER clean of such stickers.

- at events and official testing, the only adjustments competitors will be
permitted to make to the car will be minor adjustments to the cars’ “set-up”.

To me it seems that the teams are reduced to little more the sticker appliers (and removers). Why even have teams? For the little they do they may as well not be involved, it just seems like a token gesture by the FIA so they won't get as many complaints.

Yes this championship will help drivers, but it will damage everything else. Why would a driver pay £1.2 million to race in GP2 or £650,000 to race in WSbR when they can do F2 for £160,000, jeez why bother doing Formula 3. I can see GP2 getting through this if F2 is not supporting F1, but I can't see WSbR surviving. Another issue with F2 being so cheap, it will attract crappy drivers with a bit of money like fly's to dog poop. The financial motorsport ladder is now Formula Ford, FIA Formula 2, FRenault 2.0, FBMW Europe, Fomula 3. I can only assume they are going to use some kind of (not so super) Super License i.e you have to be in the top 5 of a F3 championship or champion in FBMW Europe to enter F2.

The removal of team's from Formula 1 feeder series will eventually have an effect on F1, they will struggle to find mechanics with suitable experince. It also takes away channels of progression for teams hoping to get to F1, though there are few teams that do progress up the ladder all the way to F1, now they don't have the chance.

If I had been at the FIA laying out the plans for Formula 2 I would have done it very differently, I would have opened it to all chassis & engine manufacturers and teams with the hope of encouraging them into Formula 1. I would also have used this championship to test out the cost controlling methods that will be used in F1 in future and tried to get good TV coverage so more money could be made from sponsors.

For me Formula 2 is Max Mosley trying to leave a positive legacy without thinking about the long term negative effects on the sport.

[Go_For_Pole]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

I'm guessing that the series as opposed to the entrants (to use the FIA terminology) will be doing corporate hostility, then?

No, who said that? In A1 they do set up cars and good teams make a difference (like DAMS did). Of course reading the latest autosport.com article with team owner's reaction makes for entertaining reading:

"For a team, entering a series has to work commercially. You wouldn't just enter to turn up, you have to make a profit. It might fit in well for us if it supports Formula One because we have the BMW team there already, but you have to be able to see a clear potential for profit to make it worthwhile."

Now, I am struggling to understand the logic here. Although the team's stuff will be there (by large), although it will cost the team almost nothing to do its job and collect relatively easy money for this, it will not make "commercial sense" and it does not pose "a clear potential for profit". Huh?!

If someone said "how can we explain our clients that for F. BMW it will cost double the money than the next category" I would have understood. But not this.

[Go_For_Pole]

btw what if BMW is behind the series and it also changes the way Euro F.BMW is run to reflect F2? It would make for a interesting ladder, for a fraction of the cost of any alternative.

[the sniper]

Originally Posted by Go_For_Pole

No, who said that? In A1 they do set up cars and good teams make a difference (like DAMS did).

Originally Posted by Formula 2 Invitation to Tender

- at events and official testing, the only adjustments competitors will be permitted to make to the car will be minor adjustments to the cars’ “set-up”

On a separate subject, I think this will support WTCC, mainly because the event will be based over two days (like the WTCC). On the other hand though, next year there will be 10 F2 European events (same as F1), but this year in the WTCC there were only 8 in Europe, I don't see this increasing.

[Go_For_Pole]

i guess it all depends on the definition of minor.

[MotorRacingIndustryDOTcom]

Ferrari?

[META4]

Ferrari already got involved in A1GP , i cannot see them being involved in an other project. Maybe BMW is considering "updating" his actual Formula BMW to this new Formula 2

Basicly the concept of this Formula 2 is the same as the FCJ (Formula Renault) in Japan. The Organisation owns all the cars and do the maintenance as well , then on race week ends private teams get theirs cars. Teams are not allowed to change anything about set-up unless wings.
Body work is swapped from on tub to the other one

http://www.f-challenge.com/whats/system_eng.html

[Rob29]

Originally Posted by META4

Ferrari already got involved in A1GP , i cannot see them being involved in an other project. Maybe BMW is considering "updating" his actual Formula BMW to this new Formula 2

Basicly the concept of this Formula 2 is the same as the FCJ (Formula Renault) in Japan. The Organisation owns all the cars and do the maintenance as well , then on race week ends private teams get theirs cars. Teams are not allowed to change anything about set-up unless wings.
Body work is swapped from on tub to the other one

http://www.f-challenge.com/whats/system_eng.html

Wow! Another championship I had never heard of before found through 10/10ths Seems to work quite well-budget 2M yen=£10,000?

[META4]

Full season is 8M Yen = 38 000GBP , 2M Yens is the Deposit fr crash

[Bostik]

F2 just doesnt make any sense relative to existing budgets. Perhaps their plan is to challenge the traditional cost structure that has evolved that is, lets face it, wildly out of control.
When F.Ford is 110k, F.Renault is 180k, F3 is 500k, and GP2 is 1.2m, this top level of junior racing is clearly only available to a tiny section of the potential talent pool. Of course the industry happily accepts this, but the drivers and their parents think it is absolutely scandalous.

You have discovered FCJ. Well, there are many other non-European, non-promoted series that allow drivers to learn their trade for a great deal less than these stratospheric Euro prices.
For example, in the 'emerging market' of the Arabian Gulf, there is an 18 round series for F3 level performance slicks and wings sports racers where all the cars are run and engineered by a local race team a la FPA, at fantastic GP circuits in Bahrain and Dubai, with an average race budget of 25k (the drivers own the cars). No sponsorship or subsidies are involved.

I'm not suggesting that anyone believes this is part of the ladder to F1 (although it is on the ladder to Le Mans) but I am suggesting that we should not forget that many drivers get a full season of racing for a tiny fraction of the cost of those promoted junior championships and the FIA knows that is achievable.

[Lam Pak]

as a motivating example behind the discussion of probability,fcj is paid by toyota nissan and honda. its why they got cheap dunckies. fia have to be carefull and do not want to see another matel case. if they want to make it cheaper they need to be conscious they will destroy the f3, fr eurocup, ifm,wsr and gp2 markets. mosley made a deal with devil.

[META4]

[QUOTE=Bostik]

You have discovered FCJ. Well, there are many other non-European, non-promoted series that allow drivers to learn their trade for a great deal less than these stratospheric Euro prices.
For example, in the 'emerging market' of the Arabian Gulf, there is an 18 round series for F3 level performance slicks and wings sports racers where all the cars are run and engineered by a local race team a la FPA, at fantastic GP circuits in Bahrain and Dubai, with an average race budget of 25k (the drivers own the cars). No sponsorship or subsidies are involved.

[QUOTE]

Are you talking about Formula Thunder Arabia? I guess it is not even British Formula Ford leve, very far from F3 level Performance . and i am not even sure this serie still does exist ...

[Bostik]

No, I was referring to the Gulf Radical Cup which is run by an outfit called GulfSport Racing at circuits in Dubai and Bahrain.

The cars are mostly 250bhp, 6-speed sequential, high downforce, Dunlop slicks and wings sports racers, but they also have 360 & 450bhp V8 versions. They run the same laptimes as the FIA GT3 and the Australian V8 Supercars.

The 2007/8 (winter)championship was won by Salman Al Khalifa who's currently racing in British F3.

[chunterer]

Just a thought, Ferrari into A1 - that was a slightly strange decision when it came out.

What's the likelihood that A1 or a derivative of it becomes this nascent F2?

[kipper]

Originally Posted by chunterer

What's the likelihood that A1 or a derivative of it becomes this nascent F2?

I'd be amazed if A1GP were to become F2 for it would probably represent a demotion in terms of stature. Of course, the planned A1GP feeder series could be a suitable basis for the new F2 championship. However, such a branding would mean the loss of the link between the feeder series and A1GP.

[Jackman]

You must be joking - the only link between A1GP and the feeder series' is that some of the A1 drivers move up to F3 if they do really, really well.

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by Jackman

You must be joking - the only link between A1GP and the feeder series' is that some of the A1 drivers move up to F3 if they do really, really well.

Best post I've seen in ages.

[johntt]

I reckon we'll see either BMW or Ford pick up the contract to link up with their other single-seater formulae.

I doubt VAG would get involved, given that they supply engines for F3 and Porsche already have the Supercup to promote themselves in F1 circles.

GM and Chrysler are in a lot of trouble atm so we can discount them.

Renault currently have a ladder system of their own with FRenault > Renault WS > Gp2 so i doubt they'd do it.

We could see one of the Japanese manufacturers get it, or maybe Hyundai/Kia getting involved.

[META4]

The FIA is rumoured to support this new serie, with the "Spy Story" fine

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by Go_For_Pole

No, who said that? In A1 they do set up cars and good teams make a difference (like DAMS did).

The difference being that in F2, the teams won't get the same chassis each weekend. They won't even have the same chassis between the test session and qualifying.

...And of course there will be no incentive to try and make the car any better that just "driveable" because you don't want another driver to benefit from that work the following weekend.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by johntt

I reckon we'll see either BMW or Ford pick up the contract to link up with their other single-seater formulae.

I doubt VAG would get involved, given that they supply engines for F3 and Porsche already have the Supercup to promote themselves in F1 circles.

GM and Chrysler are in a lot of trouble atm so we can discount them.

Renault currently have a ladder system of their own with FRenault > Renault WS > Gp2 so i doubt they'd do it.

We could see one of the Japanese manufacturers get it, or maybe Hyundai/Kia getting involved.

I think Ford has other priorities right now...

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by johntt

I reckon we'll see either BMW or Ford pick up the contract to link up with their other single-seater formulae.

We could see one of the Japanese manufacturers get it, or maybe Hyundai/Kia getting involved.

Mercedes?

[johntt]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Mercedes?

Hadn't thought about that. Speculation on Midweek Motorsport this week suggested Panoz DP01s.

[Shadow]

My betting is between:

- BMW (money, and maybe Mygale assembly and management)
- A1GP (chassis is ready (same than A1GP), A2GP was very close in their mind)
- RedBull (ToroRosso still waiting for something to do, many people, hospitalities, truck... everything you need for the game!)

For instance rules are copy and paste of F1/2009, no chassis around the world can comply it except F1 (or maybe adapted old F1).

Next question is how they can build this kind of car for such a few amount (have a look to crash rules), but the three option may have money to "invest".

[Mekola]

Originally Posted by Shadow

- A1GP (chassis is ready (same than A1GP), A2GP was very close in their mind)

Really? Still remember they wanted to have an A3 feeder series...