Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Single Seater Racing > Formula One

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 26 Jun 2018, 17:51 (Ref:3833216)   #76
loon
Racer
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 270
loon should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridloon should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
what will Williams do when the Stroll's take away their bag of gold?
loon is offline  
Quote
Old 26 Jun 2018, 19:31 (Ref:3833227)   #77
djinvicta
Veteran
 
djinvicta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Wales
Mojacar Southern Spain
Posts: 2,303
djinvicta has a real shot at the podium!djinvicta has a real shot at the podium!djinvicta has a real shot at the podium!djinvicta has a real shot at the podium!djinvicta has a real shot at the podium!
Patrick Head really did say "Bye Bye, I'm off" at the right time..
So surprised at Rob Smedley, so much experience there and he appears lost, but then, hands tied, it's not Ferrari and no open chequebook...
djinvicta is offline  
Quote
Old 26 Jun 2018, 20:31 (Ref:3833239)   #78
P38 in workshop
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 804
P38 in workshop has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Sadly,we appear close to the end stage of an organisation that has spawned a culture of nobody taking initiatives.It seems universal that the jobsworth approach is so embedded in Formula One that a veteran mechanic or two talking to an engineer couldn't devise and implement a couple of quick and dirty fixes.The lack of testing and the corporate culture mitigate against such things.The alternative?Carry on tumbling down the grid with extensive documentation of all the under performing parts and the processes that led to their place in the cars.Given the life of car components and the truth that it takes as long to make uncompetitive parts as it does to make good parts,it needn't take forever to make something new.All it takes is somebody with a clue and there are numerous people with impressive job titles who should have a clue.
P38 in workshop is offline  
Quote
Old 27 Jun 2018, 05:29 (Ref:3833272)   #79
Mekola
Veteran
 
Mekola's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Kiribati
Atlantis
Posts: 6,635
Mekola should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridMekola should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridMekola should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
The brand has to be re-associated with an old automaker, to renown some of its paths.
For instance, how beautiful sounds it: WILLIAMS-BUGATTI
Mekola is offline  
Quote
Old 27 Jun 2018, 06:13 (Ref:3833288)   #80
peebee2
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,249
peebee2 User had had their licence endorsedpeebee2 User had had their licence endorsed
Quote:
Originally Posted by djinvicta View Post
So surprised at Rob Smedley, so much experience there and he appears lost, but then, hands tied, it's not Ferrari and no open chequebook...
I don’t think there’s much surprise in the paddock or with the rank and file in the team.
peebee2 is online now  
Quote
Old 27 Jun 2018, 09:03 (Ref:3833298)   #81
wnut
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,088
wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!
This article in Motorsport magazine detailed the Williams problems, one of them being that they were structured as a manufacturer team without the necessary funding.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/o...s-state-nation

"Williams was – and is – spending a significant part of its budget on producing components of high engineering density but which offer no performance advantage over those which can be bought much more cheaply from, say, Mercedes. It prides itself on being an engineering company but arguably isn’t buying lap time with that costly capability. It thereby denies itself the capability of spending that money on performance differentiators. It’s also why it’s been the first team to place such emphasis on using drivers to generate income – from Pastor Maldonado through to the current Lance Stroll/Sergey Sirotkin line-up."

Then they appoint people to the organization to turn it around and fire them the instant something goes wrong. The staff and partner turnover to my way of thinking continues to be a problem. Dirk De Beer, Ed Wood, Massa, and Bottas "sold" to Mercedes. (Also losing the Martini sponsorship.)

The level of engineering also seems to be crude with an aluminium gearbox and suspension push rods still on the cars, being symptomatic, and not mirrored by any other team in the paddock.

Stroll was also 1.2 secs slower than Kubica in the latter's one off appearance in Spain.

Not exactly the formula for success.
wnut is offline  
Quote
Old 27 Jun 2018, 09:21 (Ref:3833299)   #82
S griffin
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,325
S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!
You’d think the recruitment of Paddy Lowe would have helped, but obviously not
S griffin is offline  
__________________
He who dares wins!
He who hesitates is lost!
Quote
Old 27 Jun 2018, 09:23 (Ref:3833300)   #83
VIVA GT
Veteran
 
VIVA GT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
England
Leicestershire
Posts: 5,647
VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnut View Post
This article in Motorsport magazine detailed the Williams problems, one of them being that they were structured as a manufacturer team without the necessary funding.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/o...s-state-nation

"Williams was – and is – spending a significant part of its budget on producing components of high engineering density but which offer no performance advantage over those which can be bought much more cheaply from, say, Mercedes. It prides itself on being an engineering company but arguably isn’t buying lap time with that costly capability. It thereby denies itself the capability of spending that money on performance differentiators. It’s also why it’s been the first team to place such emphasis on using drivers to generate income – from Pastor Maldonado through to the current Lance Stroll/Sergey Sirotkin line-up."

Then they appoint people to the organization to turn it around and fire them the instant something goes wrong. The staff and partner turnover to my way of thinking continues to be a problem. Dirk De Beer, Ed Wood, Massa, and Bottas "sold" to Mercedes. (Also losing the Martini sponsorship.)

The level of engineering also seems to be crude with an aluminium gearbox and suspension push rods still on the cars, being symptomatic, and not mirrored by any other team in the paddock.

Stroll was also 1.2 secs slower than Kubica in the latter's one off appearance in Spain.

Not exactly the formula for success.
That's an interesting snippet. It looks like the old British malaise of "But we've always done it this way. I think the same thing happened to our motorcycle & car industries many years ago, I'd be very sad if Williams end up going the same way...
VIVA GT is offline  
__________________
Incognito: An Italian phrase meaning Nice Gearchange!
Quote
Old 27 Jun 2018, 12:29 (Ref:3833321)   #84
P38 in workshop
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 804
P38 in workshop has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
I don't think the choice of gearbox material has a significant effect on the overall speed of the car.The fundamental problem seems to lie deeper and may need a mind free from established Williams methodology to highlight a course of action to recover from this slump.Which could be an uncomfortable situation for some.
P38 in workshop is offline  
Quote
Old 27 Jun 2018, 14:20 (Ref:3833327)   #85
Richard C
Veteran
 
Richard C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,803
Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by P38 in workshop View Post
I don't think the choice of gearbox material has a significant effect on the overall speed of the car.The fundamental problem seems to lie deeper and may need a mind free from established Williams methodology to highlight a course of action to recover from this slump.Which could be an uncomfortable situation for some.
Interesting article which actually tries to end on a positive note. I read it not so much as the gearbox material as being the problem, but that it might be indicative of the overall situation. That given Williams is trying to solve more problems than they should (not sourcing off the shelf when they could), that they are providing something like an 80% solution everywhere vs a 100% solution in targeted areas which may make a difference.

Richard
Richard C is online now  
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one."
Quote
Old 27 Jun 2018, 16:59 (Ref:3833343)   #86
chunder
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
England
Stevenage
Posts: 8,298
chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
All that will change is that Stroll will possibly try and buy even more into the team. If he wants to, right now he is basically paying for the engines as I understand it. So team aspects might be next if he wants to. But that's a bold step for ma kid w=who is clearly never going to be anything special in a race car's Dad! No matter how rich

And that is when Williams will likely end.
chunder is offline  
Quote
Old 27 Jun 2018, 17:04 (Ref:3833344)   #87
P38 in workshop
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 804
P38 in workshop has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
Interesting article which actually tries to end on a positive note. I read it not so much as the gearbox material as being the problem, but that it might be indicative of the overall situation. That given Williams is trying to solve more problems than they should (not sourcing off the shelf when they could), that they are providing something like an 80% solution everywhere vs a 100% solution in targeted areas which may make a difference.

Richard
I think we are saying basically the same thing.Doing things the same old way isn't working and it might need a fresh approach-perhaps a fresh technical chief-to modify the way they are going about things.Carrying on along the same path doesn't look too promising.
P38 in workshop is offline  
Quote
Old 27 Jun 2018, 19:51 (Ref:3833366)   #88
S griffin
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,325
S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!
They do need some changes if they are to get anywhere, as it is clear they have been left behind by the others
S griffin is offline  
__________________
He who dares wins!
He who hesitates is lost!
Quote
Old 28 Jun 2018, 01:11 (Ref:3833393)   #89
Mekola
Veteran
 
Mekola's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Kiribati
Atlantis
Posts: 6,635
Mekola should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridMekola should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridMekola should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid

Quote:
Originally Posted by chunder View Post
All that will change is that Stroll will possibly try and buy even more into the team. If he wants to, right now he is basically paying for the engines as I understand it. So team aspects might be next if he wants to. But that's a bold step for ma kid w=who is clearly never going to be anything special in a race car's Dad! No matter how rich

And that is when Williams will likely end.
As ended in 1976 the first team... Also bought by Canadian entrepeneur that time... The petroleum magnate Walter Wolf...
Story tends to repeat...
Mekola is offline  
Quote
Old 28 Jun 2018, 08:07 (Ref:3833418)   #90
S griffin
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,325
S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!
The more things change the more they stay the same
S griffin is offline  
__________________
He who dares wins!
He who hesitates is lost!
Quote
Old 28 Jun 2018, 16:25 (Ref:3833473)   #91
Moneyseeker
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,169
Moneyseeker is going for a new lap record!Moneyseeker is going for a new lap record!Moneyseeker is going for a new lap record!Moneyseeker is going for a new lap record!Moneyseeker is going for a new lap record!Moneyseeker is going for a new lap record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
Interesting article which actually tries to end on a positive note. I read it not so much as the gearbox material as being the problem, but that it might be indicative of the overall situation. That given Williams is trying to solve more problems than they should (not sourcing off the shelf when they could), that they are providing something like an 80% solution everywhere vs a 100% solution in targeted areas which may make a difference.

Richard

It ended on a positive note because it was written before the car had turned a wheel..! The summary is that (sadly) Williams is running a champagne ship on beer money, hoping that something will turn up - more equal regulations, VW, a mystery backer (again) who knows.


In the meantime, probably the cruel choice is to become Mercedes 'B' - take as much Mercedes kit as is allowed ( why not, they will have spent more money, time and resources designing it, testing it and building it that Williams ever could). It will mean losing probably a third of the staff, but they will be in survival mode soon..
Moneyseeker is offline  
Quote
Old 28 Jun 2018, 16:30 (Ref:3833475)   #92
chillibowl
Veteran
 
chillibowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Canada
winnipeg, canada
Posts: 9,718
chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!
how much does Williams receive in historical/special payments?

certainly its no where near Ferrari but i want to say its also a lot less then Mclaren....i do recall they were ultimately still getting more then Force India despite placing lower on the constructors table.

again, while not actually knowing the numbers, i would also question the function/validity of historical prize money if that prize money is indirectly leading to a team become less efficient, less competitive, less interested in advancement.
chillibowl is online now  
__________________
Home, is where I want to be but I guess I'm already there
I come home, she lifted up her wings guess that this must be the place
Quote
Old 28 Jun 2018, 17:19 (Ref:3833480)   #93
Mike Harte
Veteran
 
Mike Harte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
United Kingdom
W. Yorkshire
Posts: 5,471
Mike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
From what I can recall over the fairly recent years, the Williams Group of Companies, of which the racing team is just one part, remains a profitable institution.



It must always be borne in mind that Williams, like McLaren, also maintain interests in providing services and products to businesses from outside the world of motor racing, and even outside of anything to do with the automotive world.


One of Williams' outside projects is supplying supermarkets with chill saving devices for their open refrigeration units. They also supply, or licence, the modifications used to the supermarkets' refrigeration suppliers. The modification came about from their observations made during wind tunnel work on their F1 cars.
Mike Harte is offline  
Quote
Old 28 Jun 2018, 17:32 (Ref:3833481)   #94
chillibowl
Veteran
 
chillibowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Canada
winnipeg, canada
Posts: 9,718
chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!
well someone somewhere within their holdings must be doing something right as their share price hasent totally collapsed as a result of their abysmal race performances. actually has gone up a few dollars since Jan 2017.

http://www.williamsf1.com/pages/corp...%20information
chillibowl is online now  
__________________
Home, is where I want to be but I guess I'm already there
I come home, she lifted up her wings guess that this must be the place
Quote
Old 28 Jun 2018, 17:37 (Ref:3833482)   #95
Moneyseeker
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,169
Moneyseeker is going for a new lap record!Moneyseeker is going for a new lap record!Moneyseeker is going for a new lap record!Moneyseeker is going for a new lap record!Moneyseeker is going for a new lap record!Moneyseeker is going for a new lap record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
how much does Williams receive in historical/special payments?

certainly its no where near Ferrari but i want to say its also a lot less then Mclaren....i do recall they were ultimately still getting more then Force India despite placing lower on the constructors table.

again, while not actually knowing the numbers, i would also question the function/validity of historical prize money if that prize money is indirectly leading to a team become less efficient, less competitive, less interested in advancement.
I don't know that these special payments will exist for Williams in the new structure and remember that the payments are nett after FOM costs which are a lot more than in Bernie's days, so they may not end up any better off.

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk
Moneyseeker is offline  
Quote
Old 29 Jun 2018, 07:27 (Ref:3833552)   #96
wnut
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,088
wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
how much does Williams receive in historical/special payments?

certainly its no where near Ferrari but i want to say its also a lot less then Mclaren....i do recall they were ultimately still getting more then Force India despite placing lower on the constructors table.

again, while not actually knowing the numbers, i would also question the function/validity of historical prize money if that prize money is indirectly leading to a team become less efficient, less competitive, less interested in advancement.
$69 M + $10M(Special Pmt) = $79M

From

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/129388

in

F1 Finance - What is going on? Thread.

Last edited by wnut; 29 Jun 2018 at 07:36.
wnut is offline  
Quote
Old 3 Jul 2018, 11:07 (Ref:3834422)   #97
V8 Fireworks
Veteran
 
V8 Fireworks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,923
V8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridV8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridV8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moneyseeker View Post
In the meantime, probably the cruel choice is to become Mercedes 'B' - take as much Mercedes kit as is allowed ( why not, they will have spent more money, time and resources designing it, testing it and building it that Williams ever could).
But Force India is already the Mercedes B team... why would Force India allow Williams to take a similar status?
V8 Fireworks is offline  
Quote
Old 3 Jul 2018, 11:08 (Ref:3834423)   #98
V8 Fireworks
Veteran
 
V8 Fireworks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,923
V8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridV8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridV8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post

again, while not actually knowing the numbers, i would also question the function/validity of historical prize money if that prize money is indirectly leading to a team become less efficient, less competitive, less interested in advancement.
But Williams F1 is all about being on the cutting edge of technology?

The famous Williams F1 CVT for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3UpBKXMRto Truly a team that pioneers and innovates!
V8 Fireworks is offline  
Quote
Old 3 Jul 2018, 11:13 (Ref:3834425)   #99
V8 Fireworks
Veteran
 
V8 Fireworks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,923
V8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridV8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridV8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mekola View Post
They must recover the sponsorship of Canon.
Canon don't need to advertise, they are already the most popular brand of consumer cameras.

Albeit Sony and Panasonic are more successful in the professional (movie and TV) arenas if I understand correctly.
V8 Fireworks is offline  
Quote
Old 4 Jul 2018, 10:23 (Ref:3834573)   #100
Armco Bender
Llama Assassin and Sheep Botherer
Veteran
 
Armco Bender's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
New Zealand
International Sheep Ambassador
Posts: 4,212
Armco Bender is going for a new world record!Armco Bender is going for a new world record!Armco Bender is going for a new world record!Armco Bender is going for a new world record!Armco Bender is going for a new world record!Armco Bender is going for a new world record!Armco Bender is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Williams: Do they have a plan?
Apparently not.
Armco Bender is offline  
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
I have a little plan - Help needed ECW Dan Selby My Track Designs 2 21 Apr 2011 15:32
BMW? are they loosing the performance advantage they once had? Nismo Formula One 38 3 Jun 2005 10:22
Could have, Should have, Would have: Dennis on MS 11tenths Formula One 13 21 Feb 2005 13:14
They don't make drivers like they used to... TimD Motorsport History 1 29 Mar 2001 06:35
They're Boxy, But They're Good. TimD Road Car Forum 10 5 Nov 2000 13:42


All times are GMT. The time now is 19:56.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.