The broad sunlit uplands of next March. Yeah, really. .

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Baub,

Even you must know that these "old enemies" are no more. Even the French are generally friendly these days, I even understand they like our cheese and beef!

I think we are all European since geographically we are. But we are not federalists and that is the difference. The EU characterizes that as a throwback to our "imperial past" (you can read that on line). I don't think we have any problem with EU standards per se or indeed the ability for them to visit our shores whilst we visit theirs.

What it was about for many was not the jingoistic "us and them" approach, but an ability to be free from the yolk of what has become an over bureaucratic attempt at making the UK a state not a country.

Incidentally it is interesting to note that the majority of migrants come from outside the EU and that migration hasn't actually reduced.

The "Old Enemies" trope has always been a very iffy historical propaganda line. As is the "imperial past" throwback attributed to the EU. After all I think it is safe to say that at some point in their History MOST if not all of the participating states have been part of some form of empire that attempted to rule Europe and fund that project from external trading and, if possible, raw materials riches. So the empires involved were both European and remarkably global.


None of the alleged enmities seemed to prevent pragmatic strategic changes of alliance every few years. Nor did it stop trade (although more controls might be enforced) or the hiring of mercenaries who might have recently been enemies at war to support ones efforts to create or retain control and influence.


Brits did well due to a history of seafaring, a few centuries of plenty of suitable wood near a coastline to build ships and, as sailing vessels developed, control over supplies of the Baltic Pine required for the tall masts.


Come the steam revolution in the 1800s the availability of coal and relatively regular water supplies for steel making launched the Royal Navy and the maritime trading options into new developments and allowed the island to just about keep ahead of Germany in the technology race.



Everything changed in the 20th century as America developed rapidly and Europe wasted manpower and funds on 2 wars. America could afford to do so because it had plenty of cheap energy (Coal) at the start of the period and then took control of the emerging Oil market, blessed by plentiful supplies once again.


Nowadays energy is getting expensive and labour regulations usually tend to add costs in that area too.



The human output advantage for energy fuelled 'economic growth' may no longer be as effective as once it was. The costs involved are greater than the value derived from them.



There have been few signs that either the UK government or the EU Management are cognisant of such things OR, if they are, have any sort of concept about how to manage a transition to an as yet undefined new model in a logical way. The EU as an institution is, at heart, an attempt at an administrative system rather than a centre of creativity. Mainland Europe has been subject to that yoke a number of times before. The main difference now is that it is somewhat demilitarised. But then with new technology military numbers are probably less important so long as the populace can be kept in check by one means or another. The British Isles were a frequent destination for quite skilled people fleeing oppression on mainland Europe. Not something the current management would want one suspects.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Agreed in all respects; it would be good not to harp back to something that ended over 70 years ago, even if in jest.

Also agreed!

[bauble]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Baub,

Even you must know that these "old enemies" are no more. Even the French are generally friendly these days, I even understand they like our cheese and beef!

I think we are all European since geographically we are. But we are not federalists and that is the difference. The EU characterizes that as a throwback to our "imperial past" (you can read that on line). I don't think we have any problem with EU standards per se or indeed the ability for them to visit our shores whilst we visit theirs.

What it was about for many was not the jingoistic "us and them" approach, but an ability to be free from the yolk of what has become an over bureaucratic attempt at making the UK a state not a country.

Incidentally it is interesting to note that the majority of migrants come from outside the EU and that migration hasn't actually reduced.

Peter, did the Germans ever try to kill you? They did me and very nearly succeeded on a couple of occasions. It does make you look at people in a different light. The French were unreliable allies to start with, and needed rescuing from the Germans later, hardly likely to inspire confidence in them as a nation.

No I am not Jingoistic, but I remain suspicious of the motives of both countries in regard to EU ambitions.

While not wishing to be at war with anyone, I do believe in keeping my distance. Friendly relations and fair trade is one thing, being ruled is another thing entirely.

I honestly do not understand the likes of those who want to remain in the EU, it can only be for short term gain, as the long term future looks very dangerous for democracy.

Everyone is free to disagree, if they wish.

[Lancsbreaker]

I agree with Peter, too - I certainly voted out to escape the federalisation and "ever-closer union", not to mention the economic trap of the euro, but having voted to join the EEC am certainly happy to continue to trade - and as logic dictates that any goods we sell to anyone have to comply with their regulations, I don't see complying with EU regs makes us any more of a "rule-taker" than we are with any other country with whom we trade.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by bauble

Peter, did the Germans ever try to kill you?

There are a few nationalities that have tried.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

I agree with Peter, too - I certainly voted out to escape the federalisation and "ever-closer union", not to mention the economic trap of the euro, but having voted to join the EEC am certainly happy to continue to trade - and as logic dictates that any goods we sell to anyone have to comply with their regulations, I don't see complying with EU regs makes us any more of a "rule-taker" than we are with any other country with whom we trade.

I think that pretty well covers my feelings too. I also voted join back in the early '70s as the free movement of goods and people seemed a good idea. It's when the closer political ties started to mandate changing our laws to line up with euro laws covering such movement of goods/people that the rot of federalisation arrived.

[bauble]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

There are a few nationalities that have tried.

Lucky for us both that they are not very good at it then

[Robyn Slater]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

The story that from 2022 all new cars sold in the EU would be fitted with speed limiters was mentioned on Tea Break recently. The news has now got wider coverage.....

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/...cid=spartandhp

Its amazing what can be achieved with a bit of political will.

The EU don't seem to be as keen on developing a electronic solution to the northern Irish border.

[grantp]

For Info.


The UNECE position on speed control in vehicles in 2014.



https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/...tti__UNECE.pdf

[midgetman]

I just hate the "they didn't know what they were voting for" or the "Leavers don't have as many brain cells as clever old me" jibes that remainers use.

I have never, ever criticised anyone for their political beliefs or indeed their religious ones. However it does seem a trend amongst my Remainer friends to belittle anyone who voted Leave, to call them names ranging from "moron" through "Gammon" to much, much worse.

The vote was leave or remain. Should there now be a "how do you want us to leave" vote?


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[Alfaholic]

Originally Posted by midgetman

I really don't know whether our current situation is conspiracy or cock up or a mixture of both.

As someone with far too much experience of the Civil Service, I can assure you that this is pure cock-up. Nobody could plan this level of incompetance deliberately.

[Mike Harte]

What a waste of space and valuable oxygen our elected MPs are. After much wailing and crying that their voices have not been heard by No.10, they took control of Parliament today so that they could put forward their ideas.

And what happens? They reject the blooming lot!

[Robyn Slater]

The Lunatics have taken over the Asylum!!!!

[Peter Mallett]

You couldn't make it up! May has promised to leave if they vote for her deal, yet she knows Bercow has blocked a revisit and the DUP are against it anyway. Yet all the papers are shouting that she's going. She's going nowhere on this basis.

We've now voted to put back leaving until April 12(?). What difference does that make?

[Mike Bell]

Even Chris Evans on his radio prog this morning is obsessed with what happened last nought. Usually a haven of light hearted trivia (in the nicest sense).......

[gary396]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

You couldn't make it up! May has promised to leave if they vote for her deal, yet she knows Bercow has blocked a revisit and the DUP are against it anyway. Yet all the papers are shouting that she's going. She's going nowhere on this basis.

We've now voted to put back leaving until April 12(?). What difference does that make?

In many ways she's not as daft in her political manoeuvrings as she is in her EU negotiating skills and clearly a lot of her Tory MPs are a lot dimmer.

If they took the bait of her leaving after her deal goes through she could go claiming at least she delivered her negotiated Brexit (and it was then up to others to negotiate the future terms).

On the other hand if they don't agree her deal and we leave on 12th April with 'no deal' at least she can claim she did her best and carries on as PM.

[gary396]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Even Chris Evans on his radio prog this morning is obsessed with what happened last nought. Usually a haven of light hearted trivia (in the nicest sense).......

Chris Evans - you're a hardy type Mike. I just can't stand him waffling on in a morning (or any other time come to that).

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by gary396

Chris Evans - you're a hardy type Mike. I just can't stand him waffling on in a morning (or any other time come to that).

OT- he has strengths and weaknesses, like any presenter. Trouble is, most on Beeb are all weaknesses (until 0930)!

So we could still get another referendum, leave with no deal, or by some miracle the PMs proposal could get voted through.

Such progress......

[Gerard C]

We are invited to vote on May the 26, as a nation and once only. What is said on the official gov' website is:
Nombre de sièges
En raison du Brexit, le nombre de sièges attribués Ã* la France au Parlement européen devrait légèrement augmenter. Il devrait avoisiner les 80 sièges (contre 72 sièges actuellement).
I cant find any evidence of no Brexit. It is also said a euro deputy earns € 6611 net per month and that lobbyists could be no more allowed.

[Mike Bell]

Put your name down for one of the extra seats, Gerard! Sure the expense allowances will be good....

[midgetman]

Bloody hell. 6600 euros....

Je parle francais, moi. Votez Max

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[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Bloody hell. 6600 euros....

Je parle francais, moi. Votez Max

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Moi aussi - j'ai gagne "French A-level" il y a cinquante deux annees, et 6600 Euros? Ca suffit - c'est douze fois mon pension Britannique - en peux entrer beaucoup des courses, je crois Et si je devrais etre elu, j'ai mon propre gilet jaune......




(apologies for lack of appropriate accents!)

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by gary396

Chris Evans - you're a hardy type Mike. I just can't stand him waffling on in a morning (or any other time come to that).

Originally I took the same view of CE as you, Gary, but did grow to quite liking him in the end. Certainly so much better than his dreary successor. Strange because the odd time Zoe Ball stood in for other presenters she seemed OK but she's not for this spot .... not for me anyway. I'm about to switch to CE at Virgin.

[morninggents]

Whilst on the forum thought I'd mention a strange experience a couple of nights ago. Went up to the nearest market town around 7-30 pm for an indian take away and about to cross the road when a sprightly driven car came out of the town, round a roundabout and shot off up the road I was about to cross .... a Mk 1 Capri. Haven't seen one of those on the road for a while thought I. 20 minutes or so later coming out of the take away and about to cross the road again a sprightly driven (and noisier) car came out of the town rounded the roundabout and shot off in a different direction from the Capri ... a Boss Mustang this time. Haven't seen one of tose on the roads for 30 years thought I. To my knowledge there was no classic car gathering in the area that night (a Tuesday night) and I hadn't seen either car in the area previously.


Thought I'd stumbled on to the set of Ashes to Ashes.

P.S. Just noticed this is the Brexit thread. Thought I was on the Tea Break thread - sorry.

[Peter Mallett]

Nice to have a lighter post.