[BTCC] Rounds 1,2,3 Brands Hatch Indy 2017

[VXDave]

What is surprising is that in the S2000 days, the BMWs had to run 40kg (IIRC) heavier than FWD cars, if they used the sequential 'box (again, IIRC).

It does seem strange that a weight penalty for RWD wasn't implemented in the rules for NGTC from the outset (or at least when the rules were altered to accommodate RWD).

I wouldn't say that the RWD cars have a massive advantage, but they get an almost guaranteed benefit of being able to jump one or two (or more) cars off the line, which kind of undoes the point of qualifying to some extent. From that point, if a BM has jumped you, even though they take longer to get their tyres up to temp, it's far more difficult to pass them on the first few laps than it is for a BM to simply jump you off the line.

That said, having a mix of drives on the grid is more interesting than having it all the same, and the racing at the weekend was superb. BMs have traditionally gone well at Brands; I think some of the longer wheel base cars with the more slippery bodies will be the ones to beat at Donnington. It's set to be a fascinating season!

Also - a shout out to Senna Proctor... he may be a rookie, but three finishes in his first meeting including one points finish was a really good showing.

[thlbtcc]

Originally Posted by VXDave

Also - a shout out to Senna Proctor... he may be a rookie, but three finishes in his first meeting including one points finish was a really good showing.

Yup, a great debut with strong pace. I was pleasantly surprised.

[thlbtcc]

Originally Posted by redshoes

^ This
Although not necessarily to BTCC privateers

Hmmm, but which other series would want the machinery?

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by VXDave

What is surprising is that in the S2000 days, the BMWs had to run 40kg (IIRC) heavier than FWD cars, if they used the sequential 'box (again, IIRC).

It does seem strange that a weight penalty for RWD wasn't implemented in the rules for NGTC from the outset (or at least when the rules were altered to accommodate RWD).

I wouldn't say that the RWD cars have a massive advantage, but they get an almost guaranteed benefit of being able to jump one or two (or more) cars off the line, which kind of undoes the point of qualifying to some extent. From that point, if a BM has jumped you, even though they take longer to get their tyres up to temp, it's far more difficult to pass them on the first few laps than it is for a BM to simply jump you off the line.

That said, having a mix of drives on the grid is more interesting than having it all the same, and the racing at the weekend was superb. BMs have traditionally gone well at Brands; I think some of the longer wheel base cars with the more slippery bodies will be the ones to beat at Donnington. It's set to be a fascinating season!

Also - a shout out to Senna Proctor... he may be a rookie, but three finishes in his first meeting including one points finish was a really good showing.

Having said that, wasn't NGTC designed with more FWD designed from the outset? If I recall the rear subframe was slightly redesigned in 2013 to allow for *better RWD* (in some form) - I can't recall exactly what was changed, however I believe the consensus was that the rear of the car wasn't doing what the the RWD teams wanted and a minor redesign was all they could do...?

Also the benefits of RWD really don't play out in such short races. Back in the 90s the super touring races at Brands Hatch *I think* were 30 laps each. Now they are 24 laps. This doesn't allow BMW to play their tyre preservation card at all, as the tyres barely have any drop off, (although this is dependent on what tyre the drivers are on and on what track).

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by thlbtcc

Hmmm, but which other series would want the machinery?

A lot of ex-Dynamics cars have gone to Asia, some to race and some to collectors. There's a few series in Asia and other parts of the world where it potentially could be used. From a collector's point of view, it's taken Shedden to 2 BTCC titles so would be something worth having.

[auroan]

Not sure why people are interested in an NGTC cars providence. By the end of the season they are mostly "triggers brooms" anyway.

[CarsCarsCars]

I wonder hoe long WSR can use a RWD BMW when the new FWD 1 series is released.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/bmw/1-s...drive-platform

The BMW 1 Series has been a huge success since it launched in 2004, but BMW is planning a complete rethink for the third generation of its premium hatchback. It’s due to arrive at the end of next year, before going on sale early in 2019, but while our images reveal that it’ll look similar to the model it replaces, a radical revamp under the skin will see rear-wheel drive ditched in favour of drive to the front axle.

Four-wheel drive for hot M Sport models

Maybe they'll use the 4WD as a platform for RWD?

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by auroan

Not sure why people are interested in an NGTC cars providence. By the end of the season they are mostly "triggers brooms" anyway.

Same could be said for many old F1 cars. The tub remains the only original component, all the mechanical and body parts get swapped out or replaced. Doesn't stop people spending big money.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by CarsCarsCars

I wonder hoe long WSR can use a RWD BMW when the new FWD 1 series is released.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/bmw/1-s...drive-platform

Maybe they'll use the 4WD as a platform for RWD?

Won't the engine be mounted in the wrong direction for this to comply with the regulations?

If BMW are keen to promote the new 1-Series (which is likely given their backing of WSR), then they may be forced down the FWD route, leaving Subaru as the only RWD car on the grid.

[BSchneiderFan]

A FWD Beemer is just wrong. Unnatural. Like a front-engined Porsche (and I say that even though my stepfather has a Macan).

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

A FWD Beemer is just wrong. Unnatural. Like a front-engined Porsche (and I say that even though my stepfather has a Macan).

It's becoming standard for them now with the UKL platform they use for the mini.

The X1 and 2-series have already gone down that route, and the 1-Series is following suit.
Hardly a surprise given this: 'Speaking to analysts following the release of BMW’s 2009 financial results last week, CEO Norbert Reithofer revealed that 80 percent of 1-series owners believe they are driving a front-wheel drive car.'

[thlbtcc]

A shame to see the next 1-Series being FWD, but progress and that (well, cost cutting and a bigger boot..)

The car won't be out until 2018 and probably not on sale for the beginning of the year, so I guess Team BMW could continue with the current package through to the end of the 2018 season and switch in 2019, a la Honda and the Type-R.

[Sodemo]

If that's the case then it might push them towards the 3 series assuming it's a good enough platform for NGTC. My personal wish would be the 2 series coupe, however outright coupes are not permitted any more in the BTCC despite being eligible during the BTC regs era.

[stuart thompson]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

It's becoming standard for them now with the UKL platform they use for the mini.

The X1 and 2-series have already gone down that route, and the 1-Series is following suit.
Hardly a surprise given this: 'Speaking to analysts following the release of BMW’s 2009 financial results last week, CEO Norbert Reithofer revealed that 80 percent of 1-series owners believe they are driving a front-wheel drive car.'

I don't believe I'm driving a FWD car, I just boot it at a roundabout and get the rear end out lol

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

A FWD Beemer is just wrong. Unnatural. Like a front-engined Porsche (and I say that even though my stepfather has a Macan).

For sake of TCR I say bring it on. But I agree FWD Beemers are wrong. On the other hand if their customers don't care why not?

[3marinadrive]

Originally Posted by S griffin

So what else to add? It seems AJ and Colin are as expected a perfect combo, their battle in R3 was just as we expected hard but fair

I'll give Matt Neal the benefit of the doubt for the incident with Colin, I don't think he'll deliberately go into the left rear like that he ain't stupid

Rob Austin was right to hold his hands up, he was on a hiding to nothing. Shame really, because today he showed he should be up there in the top 10 most weekends

The Team HARD VWs were the surprise and Epps has certainly improved since last season. I'd like to know what happened to hill in race 1, he just disappeared. And Matt Simpson seems to be getting better

Also good to see Sonic proving his worth in the Vauxhall, even if he did have a Mansell moment in Parc Ferme! He's certainly adapted well to NGTC and the Vauxhall already looks a threat. He is a dark horse for a title challenge

MG looked nowhere and the Scoobys work in the last half of 2016 have been in vain, as they couldn't even get in the top ten today. They need to pick things up soon. It's so close though, it's hardly a shame to be last anymore. Even the Audis and Chevys were mixing it at times

Finally can I just praise the reactions of the drivers in all the series today. The amount of times a car was broadside in the road and the drivers managed to avoid them was impressive

Roll on Donny

Really interesting post. Good points made/asked throughout...

From my 'inside info' to comment on your points;

Turks is there best driver in BTCC. In the best car with the best team. Jordan will flourish, but if you look at the job Colin did - had the shunt in race one not happened I am sure he would be the Championship leader by now - to almost beat Jordan for a race three win was SO impressive - watching him through Surtees he was incredible...

Agree - the R1 incident was more Matt moving over on Colin - unfortunate

Austin has tested lots and is building on his late-season form - he's always been quick, he 'cocked up' there...but will be strong all year.

Epps was strong all weekend. Three top-ten finishes was impressive. Mind you Hill reminded us of his raw speed by qualifying P9 - ahead of lots of 'better' cars/drivers and both his team-mates...

He was tagged by Collard into Paddock in race one which broke a toe-link (50/50 incident both drivers admitted) but aside from Turkington was the 'overtaker' - went from P28 in race two to P10 in race three...those two will be worth watching - as will Burns once he gets used to BTCC

Simpson is in a Dynamics Honda - he should be getting better on that basis!

Mega job by Chilton and Proctor....will only get stronger.

MG...just a rubbish weekend and not much testing (but more than Team HARD!)

Scooby....Sutton had a mare, Plato was unlucky, Cole is still Cole and Price looked out of his depth frankly...

So bloody competitive now isn't it???!!!

Love it!

[porsche962fan]

out of curiosity you have any idea if Turks uses the same chassis he won the title back in 2014 ?

[Sodemo]

So it would appear on the surface that they tested with some kind of self imposed penalty, however the TOCA penalty was only applied the week before the race. If that is indeed true, then that's very poor form from TOCA.

https://www.adrianflux.co.uk/blog/2017/04/late-curveball-upsets-platos-subaru-at-brand-hatch.html?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=referral&utm_content=rear&utm_campaign=adrianflux

[porsche962fan]

wouldn't it be easier for them to just put the TOCA Swindon engine and so run same configuration as WSR without penalties ?

[Jon411]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

out of curiosity you have any idea if Turks uses the same chassis he won the title back in 2014 ?

http://www.touringcarregister.com/model/03/

Colin is using Chassis #4 which was first used by Sam Tordoff in 2016

Andrew Jordan is using chassis #2 which is the one Colin used in 2014, Priaulx in 2015 and Goff in 2016.

Rob Collard is using chassis #1 (as he did in 2016) which was used by Foster in 2013/14 and Tordoff in 2015.

[porsche962fan]

so the question is which one should the Turkington family buy if Colin wins the title again

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

wouldn't it be easier for them to just put the TOCA Swindon engine and so run same configuration as WSR without penalties ?

And how do you think they would justify that to Subaru? Part of the reason behind getting Subaru to commit to BTCC (and possible the main reason) was to use the Boxer engine.
Imagine the phone call to Subaru:-

'Hi Mr Subaru, it's Jason Plato with BMR. You remember how much we persuaded you to enter the BTCC, and agreed that it was the right platform to promote your Boxer engine fitted to your new Levorg. Well we've decided to ditch your engine so you won't be able to carry out any further marketing in that area. Oh, and as we are using your estate car, it won't be as competitive as the hatchbacks and saloons so we probably won't win much either. Any chance we can get a better suited car from you, and can we then use a leased engine to run it?'

Subaru - 'Just a question, how are the other manufacturers' getting on?'

BMR - 'Well the leading two rivals in Honda and BMW run their own engines, and are looking really good this season so far in the top two places.'

[porsche962fan]

MG didn't have a problem with it

you remember they started in their first year with TOCA unit where Plato almost nabbed the title , for the 2nd year their own MG engine was supposed to be developed but this never came and they still use the TOCA unit to this day

and how does this help Subaru if they struggle to be in the top 10 under current rules ?

anyway as far I am concerned I am not their biggest fan so I am not mind to see them outside the top 10 so carry on lads


Team Dynamics by comparison seem so much more logical and methodical in their approach with the Integra , Civic etc

wonder if they flat out told Honda that the Tourer is garbage and they need to ditch it

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

MG didn't have a problem with it

888 didn't choose, or persuade, MG because of engine characteristics.

[BLiTZ]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

wonder if they flat out told Honda that the Tourer is garbage and they need to ditch it

I thought it was a case of Team Dynamics built the Tourer to keep Honda UK interested in Sponsoring the team (helping them promote the new model) and bridging the gap until the Type R was eligible the following year?