Need some help with Escort Mk1 1974 (Group 2 !!)

[enforsa]

Originally Posted by ae86

I hope that some one can help

I am helping a frind to convert his BDG from cab to Lucas mek injection

problem are that he want to run a altenator also. Normaly they fit the mec pump where the altenator are but now I have seen that the Zackspeed engines have the pump driven from inlet cam.
Pullyes and belt I have sorted but is there any one that have a picture off the bracket that holds the pump in bottom ?

/Rene

The pump bracket mounts to the slide throttle using the screws that hold the slide throttle together. Its a "U" shaped mount. 4dnut (Paul) made a pattern and cast a pair of brackets in aluminium for himself and my car. Not sure whether he still has the pattern but there isn't too much to it really. The alloy takes quite a bit of machining. If you have a look at the engine bay of the Kemilianen car picture earlier in this thread you may be able to see some details. You could easily make one from steel plate cut to shape with two mounts for a through bolt for the pump to pivot on.

PS This probably needs to be in a separate thread.

[zakspeed65]

Hi AE86,

My car runs an Injected BDG and the alternator runs off the driveshaft. This may give you some other options, see photos.

Cheers.

[jsvahn]

Originally Posted by zakspeed65

Hi AE86,

My car runs an Injected BDG and the alternator runs off the driveshaft. This may give you some other options, see photos.

Cheers.

Seems to be a steel Atlas.. Was the alternator fitted on the axle on the Mk1s too?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by ae86

I hope that some one can help

I am helping a frind to convert his BDG from cab to Lucas mek injection

problem are that he want to run a altenator also. Normaly they fit the mec pump where the altenator are but now I have seen that the Zackspeed engines have the pump driven from inlet cam.
Pullyes and belt I have sorted but is there any one that have a picture off the bracket that holds the pump in bottom ?

/Rene

Been talking to a BDG engine man today of many years Lucas & Escort experience. His answer- if regulations and your views on historic accuracy allow- is to ditch the mechanical pump and fit a Bosch electric one instead.

[enforsa]

Yep I've been told exactly the same here by a well respected builder and tuner. He says they go miles better on the Bosch pump. Having said that I'll be sticking to the old Lucas mechanical and electric pumps for period accuracy.

[Gungebucket]

I am fairly certain that, for saloon cars, we used to mount the Lucas pump on top of the cam cover towards the back of the engine on the inlet side. The pump was mounted at a slight angle and driven via a flexible shaft and toothed belt off the front of the inlet cam belt pulley. The alternator was an F1 type mounted on the front of the timing cover. I MAY be getting F2 engines and saloon car engine layouts mixed up but I don't think so. Hey, it was rather a long time ago!! David

[ae86]

hi zakspeed65

nice, pully on back off the flange and just fit a small racing altenator and you move 3-5 kg from front to rear off car

[ae86]

Originally Posted by enforsa

The pump bracket mounts to the slide throttle using the screws that hold the slide throttle together. Its a "U" shaped mount. 4dnut (Paul) made a pattern and cast a pair of brackets in aluminium for himself and my car. Not sure whether he still has the pattern but there isn't too much to it really. The alloy takes quite a bit of machining. If you have a look at the engine bay of the Kemilianen car picture earlier in this thread you may be able to see some details. You could easily make one from steel plate cut to shape with two mounts for a through bolt for the pump to pivot on.

PS This probably needs to be in a separate thread.

hi Chris

yes you are rigth but how can we do that now ?

/Rene

[Mike Bell]

If the moderators decide this is too far off topic they have the means to move or create a new thread, but as the title is "Need some help with Escort Mk1 1974" it covers a multitude of sins! Sometimes the definitions of categories 'Historic Racing Today' and 'Motorsport History' get blurred but hey ho

Question regarding alternators- was the diff mounted alternator used in period? While it gets over the difficulty of finding somewhere on the engine to drive it, immediately you are putting more unsprung weight on the rear suspension. Would cancel out some of that weight saved by the alloy rear axle they had fitted?

David, the metering unit is usually mounted as you say on Escort, but high pressure pump is the problem. Most single seaters drove metering unit off back of inlet cam. No room in Escort engine compartment for that!

[jsvahn]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

you are putting more unsprung weight on the rear suspension. Would cancel out some of that weight saved by the alloy rear axle they had fitted?

I thought the same when I saw the pictures..

[Mike Bell]

Staring into an empty engine compartment today got me thinking about Zakspeed and Broadspeed front crossmembers / engine mounts.

Am I right in thinking that Zakspeed used chassis rail engine mounts for Gp2 Mk1s (sure there is a pic suggesting so), and if so, what were the advantages over using a 'World Cup' crossmember? Can't imagine a weight saving unless it allowed a lighter member between the tca's?

And associated with mounts, was the engine lowered?

[Al Weyman]

A mate of mine used to do that alternator trick on his Sierra Super Rod oval racer. I believe he said that for some reason the regs said no alternators, not sure.

[tony griffiths]

Any one need Lucas Injection parts let me know !

[4dnut]

As Chris mentioned ,I do have a pattern to cast the bracket that holds the pump to the slide throttle, I am a bit technically inept when it comes to posting photos so I will see if Chris will help.I have a copy of an old Rallye Racing mag from Germany when they test the Zak car in 1974, it clearly shows the pump mounted on the slide throttle,interior shot, under rear of car, front with wheel off etc.As with the use of the mechanical pump, I have used this and it works fine and also looks correct,I have ditched the Lucas electric pump for the Bosch one but this is only used for starting. I also made a camcover pattern that has all the fixings for the metering unit with the wipple drive.The Zak cars used this wipple drive( Gary's Grp 5 has this also)I have only seen one other way of mounting the metering unit in period in an Escort and that was under the slide throttle in the front on a Mk2(Beaulieu museum).I hope this isn't getting off topic but i like like minded guys and these cars.As for the engine mounted on the cross member, the photos I have seen indicate this and I have also done this,it provides several things,engine can be sightly relocated(back) but down is an issue because of the rack fowling the sump(lowering the rack ends up with more bump steer issues), but what is also does is give the ability to put the car on the hoist, drop the x-member ,remove the sump and check bearings etc.

Paul

[4dnut]

Here is a link to a couple of photos under the bonnet of my car showing ,camcover, metering unit placement, and high pressure pump bracket.

http://picasaweb.google.com/10847697...z_-NuNgOKfuQE#

Paul

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by 4dnut

I hope this isn't getting off topic but i like like minded guys and these cars. As for the engine mounted on the cross member, the photos I have seen indicate this and I have also done this,it provides several things,engine can be sightly relocated(back) but down is an issue because of the rack fowling the sump(lowering the rack ends up with more bump steer issues), but what is also does is give the ability to put the car on the hoist, drop the x-member ,remove the sump and check bearings etc.

Paul

Paul, thanks again for the info. When I pick my engine up from rebuild will have a long chat with the man about alternators and drives for pumps but think you have cleared it up.

Your last comment re crossmembers is a very valid one. Being able to remove sump quickly with engine in situ could have been useful. I can see that rack clearance issues would make moving engine down difficult, unless they moved steering arms and outer tca pivots down as well?

Tony, thanks for that. I kept my engine on carbs for cost and simplicity. (OK I didn't understand Lucas Inj, despite parents having a TR5 in period which I used to borrow!) Now I have learned much about the Lucas pros and cons want one day to convert- bank manager willing!

BTW anyone- Did Zakspeed use Kugelfischer at some point?

[jsvahn]

How many Zaks where built?

Is there any chances to see one of the cars race today in any historic series?


Fuel Injection:
http://www.davidgathercole.co.uk/mec...injection.html
Good quality?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by jsvahn

How many Zaks where built?

Is there any chances to see one of the cars race today in any historic series?

Hi Johan, good question- presume you mean Gp2 Mk1 RS1600 and not later cars?

No idea if any original MK1 Zakspeed Escorts are being raced in Europe.

New Lucas Injection parts- have no idea on how they compare with originals. Should be better with modern machining and casting techniques and all those years experience of the old ones! Engine builders associated with BDGs would be best people to talk to.

[tony griffiths]

Mike,

I forgot to mention can supply all the metering unit drive gear for an injected BD series engine + just about all the engine components !

My background is ex Nicholson McLaren and Cosworth.

Tony

[ae86]

Originally Posted by 4dnut

Here is a link to a couple of photos under the bonnet of my car showing ,camcover, metering unit placement, and high pressure pump bracket.

http://picasaweb.google.com/10847697...z_-NuNgOKfuQE#

Paul

Hi poul

I have lovered the steering rack and changed the TCA mounting hull up (GR4 cross member) and fitted cranked steering arms to improve roll center and reduce bump steer
If I need to check on the bearing I take engine out itis easiyer

but are you allowed to run proflex in historic I know we have problems here

/Rene

[jsvahn]

Gearbox:

Does anyone know what gear ratios were used?
Did Zak use dogboxes?

Final Drive:

What is the common final drive that is used?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by jsvahn

Gearbox:

Does anyone know what gear ratios were used?
Did Zak use dogboxes?

Final Drive:

What is the common final drive that is used?

The Escort was only homologated with Ford 4 speed or ZF 5 speed synchromesh gearboxes, so don't see possibility of Zakspeed using anything other than latter in Mk1. When rules changed in 1976 they reverted to Ford 4 speed for the Mk2s.

Gear ratios for ZF were also homologated and are listed on FIA papers for RS1600 (No 1605)- which if you havn't got from your national MSA you really should get if you are intending to build a car.

Final drive ratios had to be homologated as well and are listed on the papers above. As to what was used or is used now- depends on circuit, tyre size and what engine revs to. Probably need 2 choices or maybe three if you take racing seriously......

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by tony griffiths

Mike,

I forgot to mention can supply all the metering unit drive gear for an injected BD series engine + just about all the engine components !

My background is ex Nicholson McLaren and Cosworth.

Tony

Tony, with your background maybe you can help me.

Maybe I haven't been looking in the right place, but I cannot find any evidence of the BDG homologated in an Escort before the Mk II bodied RS1800 manufacturded from March 1975.

The 1970 Mk I RS1600 had an iron block BDA and not a BDG.

Can you give me any further information which could confirm or contradict this?

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by tony griffiths

Mike,

I forgot to mention can supply all the metering unit drive gear for an injected BD series engine + just about all the engine components !

My background is ex Nicholson McLaren and Cosworth.

Tony

Tony, with your background maybe you can help me.

Maybe I haven't been looking in the right place, but I cannot find any evidence of the BDG homologated in an Escort before the Mk II bodied RS1800 manufacturded from March 1975.

The 1970 Mk I RS1600 had an iron block BDA and not a BDG yet the 1975cc engines required a 90mm bore which was too big for an iron block.

Can you give me any further information which could confirm or contradict this?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by phoenix

Tony, with your background maybe you can help me.

Maybe I haven't been looking in the right place, but I cannot find any evidence of the BDG homologated in an Escort before the Mk II bodied RS1800 manufacturded from March 1975.

The 1970 Mk I RS1600 had an iron block BDA and not a BDG yet the 1975cc engines required a 90mm bore which was too big for an iron block.

Can you give me any further information which could confirm or contradict this?

Phoenix, Tony will probably give a better explanation but in meantime- the RS1600 engine block was changed in production to Alloy from 1st Aug 1972 and homologation accepted same year. This change of material and design is my understanding of why BDA engine capacity could be physically increased to nearly 2 litres. It wasn't easily done on Iron block.