Future Grands Prix?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Am I missing something somewhere? The race was just announced and now it is only available on streaming services like Disney? Is this fact or speculation? I have searched online and can't find any mention anywhere that F1 is changing how they are delivering content?

Richard

In fairness S. Griffin didn't say, it is now only available on streaming services like Disney but said, ''I just hope we don't see F1 on some streaming service like Disney+''.

[TheMightyM]

I see two ways that we could see additional F1 races in the U.S.:

* Someone figures out how to make a New York City race happen.
* Los Angeles, broadly defined. In practice this means turning the Long Beach IndyCar race back into a F1 race.

Neither is likely, but you never know.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

As I understand it - F1 races in the US are shown on ESPN?
With ESPN being 80% owned by The Walt Disney Company - I think this is the reference to 'The Mouse'.
Again, just from quick research, I think 'ESPN and Sports Content' and 'Disney Media and Entertainment Distribution' are run as two entirely independent divisions within the Walt Disney Empire?

ok. I now get those leaps in logic. Not that I particularly agree with them.

In the US, EPSN shows most, but not all F1 races. I think last year ABC broadcast both the US and Mexican races while ESPN did everything else. I don't really count the fact that ESPN (and by extension Disney) broadcasting the other races as any significant interest in F1 by Disney. Broadcast of F1 in the US has always felt like a bit of an afterthought. As interest grows in F1 here in the US that might change.

My expectations is that the three US races (plus probably Mexico, maybe Canadian and I think sometime Monaco) will be carried by one of the larger networks (probably ABC) and ESPN will carry everything else. As to the wealth of sports available to US views in November, while the rabid football fans might wonder why anyone might show anything but football in November (and I understand that lots of money is spent for those right), I do think there is room for something other than football on TV. I say this as someone who could care less about US football in any way shape or form.

But seriously, the Vegas race will be 10PM Pacific Time. Which means it will be late for much of the US (1 AM on the US east coast). It will really battle very little (if any) with other sports. I wonder more about it conflicting with established evening news and late night talk shows. Frankly I am likely to just watch the recording of the race Sunday morning.

Richard

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Am I missing something somewhere? The race was just announced and now it is only available on streaming services like Disney? Is this fact or speculation? I have searched online and can't find any mention anywhere that F1 is changing how they are delivering content?

absolute and total speculation on my part!

but speculation based on how other sports seem to be approaching distribution. i would think any sport trying to grow itself in the US would be looking at what other sports are doing namely the NFL.

they employ a mix of traditional cable arrangements, home and away feeds, creating an extra night and producing it in house via the NFL network, games streamed live on Amazon Prime, and (perhaps most interestingly imo) an increasing number of games being simulcasted on Nickelodeon (a children's channel) with younger commentators and graphics that appeal to a younger audience.

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

As I understand it - F1 races in the US are shown on ESPN?
With ESPN being 80% owned by The Walt Disney Company - I think this is the reference to 'The Mouse'.
Again, just from quick research, I think 'ESPN and Sports Content' and 'Disney Media and Entertainment Distribution' are run as two entirely independent divisions within the Walt Disney Empire?

separate but connected. again just speculating, but i would think that as the line between sports and entertainment blurs there would be inherent synergies to using multiple and separate platforms to cater to a growing and diverse market?

i would suggest the days of just having one broadcast and hoping it appeals to everyone will be replaced with feeds offering different commentary teams, aimed at different age groups, and more catered to advertisers looking to connect to specific groups.

anyways, im way off topic and totally just riffing!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

but speculation based on how other sports seem to be approaching distribution. i would think any sport trying to grow itself in the US would be looking at what other sports are doing namely the NFL.

One key difference between F1 and NFL is the number of "events" to broadcast. Wikipedia tells me that the NFL has 272 (over 18 weeks) regular season games. F1 will have 23 (over ~35 weeks) for 2022. With that type of volume, they can easily use various distribution methods. In fact, you may need them unless you only show some games to small markets (multiple games happening at the same time).

Lastly, F1 has it's own streaming service. I guess if someone was to pay them enough to get right to the content, they would license it for some other streaming platform. Maybe they might also support geofenced streaming for specific areas (such as Netflix to show US races to US viewers), but I just don't see F1 doing any large deals that undercuts their own service on a global basis.

Richard

[chillibowl]

sure the number of games makes a difference but perhaps more of a difference in that it forced them to move towards a new system faster then others? that and the money of course.

NFL has its own subscription service as well via NFL Sunday Ticket and the Redzone...basically PPV tiers for those that need access to every game and also in partnership with their cable partners.

[S griffin]

To be fair NFL has managed to keep itself grounded, while keeping up with the times. It's got it's own streaming, but there are still plenty of places for the casual fan to watch. It's right it has it's own TV deal still

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

sure the number of games makes a difference but perhaps more of a difference in that it forced them to move towards a new system faster then others? that and the money of course.

NFL has its own subscription service as well via NFL Sunday Ticket and the Redzone...basically PPV tiers for those that need access to every game and also in partnership with their cable partners.

Originally Posted by S griffin

To be fair NFL has managed to keep itself grounded, while keeping up with the times. It's got it's own streaming, but there are still plenty of places for the casual fan to watch. It's right it has it's own TV deal still

Yeah, I think you both saying roughly the same thing. I think given the volume of NFL content, it can be split across multiple channels in the US. And then as chillibowl says, you have something like NFL Sunday Ticket (which I think is/was a DirecTV thing in the past) in which you can view any game?

As to F1, I am always a proponent of a freemium model. Provide basic OTA solution for everyone. Then provide a premium experience (such as via streaming). I am trying the F1TV service this season. I mostly like it.

Pros:
1. Ability to switch between cars (in car) at any time.
2. The data views (sector timing and relative track position)
3. You can watch older races and get the above benefits as well.

Cons:
1. I am using an Nvidia Shield with the F1TV Android app (just like Netflix, Prime, HBOMax, Disney+, etc.) hooked up to my TV and unlike any other of those services, F1TV will ask me to relogin at the most inopportune times.
2. I have had the app crash a few times when switching around between views. So it is buggy.

This is all off topic. There is the UK broadcast thread. I wonder if there might be room for a general "world" broadcast thread in which we can chat about F1 viewing options.

Richard

[Kempi]

Lastly, F1 has it's own streaming service. I guess if someone was to pay them enough to get right to the content, they would license it for some other streaming platform. Maybe they might also support geofenced streaming for specific areas (such as Netflix to show US races to US viewers), but I just don't see F1 doing any large deals that undercuts their own service on a global basis.

Unfortunatey their streaming service is only a crutch for where they do not have a broadcasting deal. Has been from the start. In Germany, the streaming was only available one season. The other seasons, F1 was and still is exclusively on Sky with no F1 Streaming available.

As I have no other interest in Sky, no F1 feed for me since Sky is much more expensive than the F1 stream.

[crmalcolm]

Apologies - still on the broadcast thread.

One issue with comparing NFL to F1 coverage is that you are not really comparing apples with apples.

For example. Let's say you are a Ricciardo fan in F1, and a Mahomes fan in NFL (or a McLaren and Chefs fan - works the same).

To watch Ricciardo all season, you have to watch every race. If this was on a PPV basis, you would have to watch 23 'events'.
To watch Mahomes all season, you have to watch 17 (+ post-season) 'events' from the overall 272.

[chillibowl]

but a lot of those games are far more regional and the broadcasts of those games reflect this. for example, still not all games broadcast in 4k HDR. while this may seem irrelevant to this conversation, i bring it up to highlight that more games is not always a benefit when it comes to broadcasting. rather the NFL prioritizes certain games and it is upon those games where the comparison should be made imo.

currently (and could be wrong here) but only one NFL broadcast partner routinely films games in 4K HDR or they do this for their marquee time slot games (Thursday, Sunday, Monday nights) and playoffs....which i would say, in terms of number of games puts FOM's dream of 25+ mini super bowls closer to where the NFL is in regards to utilizing new and various distribution platforms.

but of course this too comes with a catch and that is the ever increasing monetization of the sport.

back on topic though...

the below video is a simulated track lap of Miami and it seems the focus is very much on all the nice places a wealthy individual can sit and luxuriously watch the race from.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9keSR9XSRE

[Kempi]

The most ridiculous part is the drydocked yachts in the middle of the track.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Kempi

The most ridiculous part is the drydocked yachts in the middle of the track.

lol

boats that go no where seems like an apt metaphor!

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

while im totally inclined to agree with you, i also cant help but wonder if they have a different plan altogether?

its Vegas so is a PPV event out of the question? their desire to monetize the US market probably has more to do with the size of the gate rather then number of eyeballs watching.

so speaking of the Mouse, could they be looking to do something through their Disney+ service possibly even thinking live streaming of specific F1 races...essentially take another page from the NFL playbook and their Thursday Night deal with Amazon Prime.

basically a creative way to sell games on off nights that no one is really that interesting in watching anyways?

obviously just speculating, but its Vegas so i expect their solution will somehow cost us all more money!

LM will want to GROW the event, the NFL already has the fan base that will pay outrageous sums to watch, see the success of the NFL RedZone on DirecTV. It was offered free a couple seasons and then part of the NFL package, when my old roommate bought it I believe the price was well over 500 bucks for the year when the MLB package was around 200.

I believe you will see F1 in the US go 100% to streaming soon but I think the US "primetime" events stay on OTA/terrestrial/broadcast TV as the intro. See the NFL still making FAR more money on FOX and CBS than Amazon. And if they're smart they will look at the backlash from NYC for selling a product already available to a private THIRD required service, MLB sold select Friday Night Baseball productions to Apple TV+ and NYC has gone apesht over it.

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I think - the connection to Disney comes from the following sequence of posts:

I linked the FAQs, which confirm that the race will be a Saturday Night (US time) in November. In my post I speculated about it being the weekend after Thanksgiving.



There then entailed a couple of posts discussing the other sport being shown around that time. This resulted in:



This reference to 'The Mouse' was taken (rightly or wrongly - I'm not sure) to be a reference to the race being streamed on Disney+:




As I understand it - F1 races in the US are shown on ESPN?
With ESPN being 80% owned by The Walt Disney Company - I think this is the reference to 'The Mouse'.
Again, just from quick research, I think 'ESPN and Sports Content' and 'Disney Media and Entertainment Distribution' are run as two entirely independent divisions within the Walt Disney Empire?

The Mouse refers to Disney and their management of all productions. To claim they don't manage them as one entity is to ignore their history. ESPN had great hosts, commentary teams, and packages, now they've fired majority of the crews that build the network and have threatened to sue some who left and bad mouthed management, exactly how Disney has managed ABC and Disney productions. To believe Disney management is not wholly behind pulling the strings of how ESPN operates is delusional. Remember, ESPN and Liberty Media are actually competitors in the US have multiple divisions who compete for products and resources but have to get along at the same time. LM needs ESPN's numbers and even they have admitted their streaming impact isn't growing as hoped with ESPN+, partially because of production requirements forcing some events to cable packages only. US rights laws are a complicated mess of contradictions and weird rules. NFL operates like FOM, all events and games are owned by the "league" so bids are for packages. MLB, and to an extent NBA, operate with each team having their own deals with local Sports Networks for majority but the league selling packages like Sunday Night Baseball to ESPN previously and Saturday MLB to Fox and Friday Night Baseball to Apple TV+


And LM is going to use this LV event to drive US viewers to the detriment, or complete utter lack of concern, of other viewers. It will be a likely East Coast time race so assume 8-9ish to start.

[crmalcolm]

Las Vegas GP:

Domenicali has confirmed that the race will start at 10pm local time, and local media are reporting that it is being held on 25 November.

Domenicali - “That’s the reason why we are flexible. We are showing that’s the right moment to have the best show in this context. I don’t see any problem on that. If you think actually what is, in terms of timing in Europe represented the racing time we have decided, 10pm Saturday night [in Las Vegas] is perfect because also that audience will be connected.”

Joe Saward - 'The big news for me in Jeddah, apart from things going bang, was the plans that will soon be announced for the new Grand Prix of Las Vegas. The first will take place on 25 November 2023, on America’s Thanksgiving holiday weekend. If you look it up, you will find that this is a Saturday, the day after Black Friday, the first day of the Christmas shopping season.

This is not a mistake as the race, which will take place on Saturday night under lights on The Strip in Las Vegas, will hit the US television markets at peak hours – and will be broadcast at a sensible hour on Sunday morning in F1’s traditional markets in Europe, and later on the Sunday in Asia.'

[broadrun96]

10 pm on a Saturday Western time ain't primetime TV so I find that VERY VERY suspect. That's 1 am Eastern and midnight Central so most of the US is well past primetime, no chance in hell of that happening.

He probably meant 10 pm EASTERN, that's 3 hours earlier and even that is questionable

Also, just talked to my cousin who lives out there. Expect MASSIVE lawsuits, casinos want no part of it so racing on the The Strip isn't going to go well in court. It will end up on the south end of town most likely with views of The Strip, there's not a lot of local buy-in of the event it seems

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

10 pm on a Saturday Western time ain't primetime TV so I find that VERY VERY suspect. That's 1 am Eastern and midnight Central so most of the US is well past primetime, no chance in hell of that happening.

He probably meant 10 pm EASTERN, that's 3 hours earlier and even that is questionable

I think they are looking at European viewing time for the broadcast, and local time for those attending in person.

Anything earlier than 6am in the UK would see viewing figures plummet here....

[crmalcolm]

F1 and Liberty Media will work together to promote the race in partnership with Live Nation Entertainment and the Las Vegas Convention and Visitors Authority (LVCVA), as well as Founding Partners Caesars Entertainment, MGM Resorts International, and Wynn Las Vegas and Presenting Partners MSG Sphere, Resorts World Las Vegas and The Venetian Resort.

[broadrun96]

This is not a mistake as the race, which will take place on Saturday night under lights on The Strip in Las Vegas, will hit the US television markets at peak hours – and will be broadcast at a sensible hour on Sunday morning in F1’s traditional markets in Europe, and later on the Sunday in Asia.'

That's the quote you used. 10 pm Western time ain't primetime for 80% of the US so they aren't hitting American TV markets in anything close to peak hours. The West Coast big football games will be played at 7 Western and that's still 10 pm Eastern, not 10pm local cause that cuts out everyone. You can't say you're looking at American fans and then proceed to flip them all off. It won't be watched by more than 18 people live, see this weekends Aussie GP. It's actually only advertised West Cost time cause it's on at 1 am Eastern. The numbers for the first showing always suck, the afternoon re-air is decent but usually less than the morning Eastern time European races

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

F1 and Liberty Media will work together to promote the race in partnership with Live Nation Entertainment and the Las Vegas Convention and Visitors Authority (LVCVA), as well as Founding Partners Caesars Entertainment, MGM Resorts International, and Wynn Las Vegas and Presenting Partners MSG Sphere, Resorts World Las Vegas and The Venetian Resort.

I'm just going by what a guy who works in one has heard, oh and the casinos were noticeably absent from the presser and the mayor was. It was the governor, LV ain't the capital of the state either. It seems promises were made and are now being thrown away already with claims of road shutdown for the entire weekend and no access at all. That's close to a billion dollars a day lost according to some estimates out there, LM and FOM don't make that much

Just being realistic, it's been tried multiple times and grand announcement led to races in a parking lot on the side of town. Remember, there are still lawsuits over Miami that could screw things up and NYC race was pre-empted by lawsuits Bernie thought he could brush aside. They won and he was sent packing regardless of what he says.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

This is not a mistake as the race, which will take place on Saturday night under lights on The Strip in Las Vegas, will hit the US television markets at peak hours – and will be broadcast at a sensible hour on Sunday morning in F1’s traditional markets in Europe, and later on the Sunday in Asia.'

That's the quote you used. 10 pm Western time ain't primetime for 80% of the US so they aren't hitting American TV markets in anything close to peak hours. The West Coast big football games will be played at 7 Western and that's still 10 pm Eastern, not 10pm local cause that cuts out everyone. You can't say you're looking at American fans and then proceed to flip them all off. It won't be watched by more than 18 people live, see this weekends Aussie GP. It's actually only advertised West Cost time cause it's on at 1 am Eastern. The numbers for the first showing always suck, the afternoon re-air is decent but usually less than the morning Eastern time European races

The quote was from Joe Saward, who posted before the race was confirmed. He made the assumption it would be a bit earlier.
Domenicali has since confirmed that the start time will be 10pm local, to meet European broadcast opportunities.
A number of casinos are part of the promotional team and the track layout has been published (including the strip).

It all seems quite definitive?

[Adam43]

10pm Vegas is good for Europe?! I mean, I quite liked the timing of the early races here in the US. It didn’t ruin the whole day. Still time to do stuff. It’s hardly peak sport time though.

I thought the daytime American races always did really well for TV viewers in Europe as it is Sunday tea time after the weekends activities. A way to kill the long dark teatime of he soul.

Obviously that’s be hot and not show the strip of to its best.

But hey, it’s a change.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

10 pm Western time ain't primetime for 80% of the US so they aren't hitting American TV markets in anything close to peak hours. The West Coast big football games will be played at 7 Western and that's still 10 pm Eastern, not 10pm local cause that cuts out everyone. You can't say you're looking at American fans and then proceed to flip them all off. It won't be watched by more than 18 people live, see this weekends Aussie GP. It's actually only advertised West Cost time cause it's on at 1 am Eastern. The numbers for the first showing always suck, the afternoon re-air is decent but usually less than the morning Eastern time European races

Having a race at midnight / 1:00 AM would make viewing a true Aussie experience - the vast majority of the races for us here kick off at between midnight and 2:00 AM local time (East Coast Australia) depending on time of year and the like. Many that I know watch the races when they get up early Monday morning, rather than fully live.

[S griffin]

The problem is trying to cater for the whole world. It must be hard for you Aussies getting up in the middle of the night just as Monday starts, unless you prefer recording it, however other time zones like those in America are affected too. I'm sure though everyone finds a way around it.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by S griffin

The problem is trying to cater for the whole world. It must be hard for you Aussies getting up in the middle of the night just as Monday starts, unless you prefer recording it, however other time zones like those in America are affected too. I'm sure though everyone finds a way around it.

It's been harder here in Oz since F1 went later and later on the start times - used to be an 11:00 PM or thereabouts start and we'd crawl into the cot around 1:00 AM and be good for work, if a bit bleary-eyed on Monday morning. The first two races of the season started at 2:00AM Monday morning here - clearly this weekend is a completely different experience!

We get it - we're a small market on the other side of the planet from most of the races. Interestingly, for quite some time in the 80s, the F1 telecasts were the strongest in Oz for male demographic viewers across any time of the week believe it or not (in the years after AJ won his World Championship).

Agree that the you can't cater for the whole world and we're OK - with the GPs on Foxtel and its streaming setup Kayo, we can get up early, watch the race "as live" but delayed by a few hours - before we see any results. Seems to work.