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Old 20 Aug 2018, 08:27 (Ref:3844894)   #1
Simon Hadfield
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Simon Hadfield should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridSimon Hadfield should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The broad sunlit uplands of next March. Yeah, really. .

So, as we hurtle (plummet?) towards the end date of our participation in the European jamboree has anyone anywhere actually considered what this means for Motorsport, in particular our section of club motorsport? I am surprised that the MSA has not been seen to discuss this but it is going to affect everyone who does even the odd race in Europe.
It would appear that Carnets will be necessary and even if your car has road registration the trailer and your tools and equipment will still need control documentation.
Our licences I presume will no longer be European compatible, also British officials will, in Europe, no longer be able to have authority in any thing other than full International events.
The concept of allowing one race in Europe to count for a national championship will end I presume?
What about taxes? If your championship has every round in Europe will they want to tax your income earned in Europe? Will staff need a work permit as we used to have to get to run race cars in the USA?
If calendars are being put together now, and it would be expected that they are, why are these issues not being discussed?
Now I fully understand that if governments cannot even agree on where the Police can work and who they can talk to then our play area is a long way down the agenda but surely this is, to us at least, important and the discussion should be in the public domain?
Even to know that it is being thought about would be a start......
I would also point out that for us Brits doing several races a year in Europe the carnet costs will be spread over a few races, how many Europeans will pay for a carnet to do one race in the UK? Not quite so attractive I suspect.

It is interesting to note that at the Tunnel there appears to be very little work underway to prepare for the vast increase in Customs processes that begins in March. Maybe its all out of sight...
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Old 20 Aug 2018, 08:52 (Ref:3844897)   #2
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zefarelly should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridzefarelly should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridzefarelly should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
It's a massive sh*t sandwich. That's before you consider motorsport.

I can only hope the whole thing falls to pieces and gets canned, the status quo may not be perfect but its 100 times better than any other proposal thus far. We can negotiate as part of the same club, sitting at the same dinner table, but shouting from outside the garden gate won't get us very far.
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Old 20 Aug 2018, 09:04 (Ref:3844898)   #3
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Yes I've given it some thought, and conclude that things will revert to how they were before we were conned into joining (and yes, I am old enough to remember). Just a bit of extra admin and forms to fill in, and off we go. Of course, the anti-Brexiteers will tend to make a mountain out of a molehill, but I'm more optimistic. A lot.
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Old 20 Aug 2018, 10:05 (Ref:3844909)   #4
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Yes I've given it some thought, and conclude that things will revert to how they were before we were conned into joining (and yes, I am old enough to remember). Just a bit of extra admin and forms to fill in, and off we go. Of course, the anti-Brexiteers will tend to make a mountain out of a molehill, but I'm more optimistic. A lot.
Well said David, I fear the lack of self-confidence of much of the nation will lead to disaster.

We are a strong people, and we will prosper outside of the un-elected(by us) bureaucracy of Europe.


They need us more than we need them.
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Old 20 Aug 2018, 11:01 (Ref:3844929)   #5
Tel 911S
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Tel 911S should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridTel 911S should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I was competing in Europe before Schengen .
Yes , it did mean a little bit of paperwork doing carnets , but not really any problem .
And then it meant copies to be signed at every border , not just the 1 place which might be needed now .
The only problems came if the Customs at the various borders decided to go on strike , [ like if the sun shone, or if there was a Monday in the week ]. But then I could get it sorted by a quick visit to my local C & E .

Life will go on , Motorsport will continue , imaginary disasters like this is just part of project fear to try to stop us leaving the EUSSR.
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Old 20 Aug 2018, 12:24 (Ref:3844950)   #6
Simon Hadfield
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Simon Hadfield should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridSimon Hadfield should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I'm not sure that the issue of my thread has actually been grasped.
What I'm asking is what is likely to happen and why is this not being discussed or information being given out so we can plan our lives and in some cases, businesses. If we are given a calendar in January and we don't know what licences our customers need (as an example) how does that help?
I would point out that we have had pretty much full access to European motorsport, cheaply and more or less hassle free, since we joined Europe. The concept of "going back to what we had" is simply unknown by most competitors today.
When I started in Historic racing we did indeed have carnets, and the associated costs, and could not compete outside of the UK without an International licence and a covering letter from, then, the RAC. From memory that covering letter was specific to an event, not a generic one.
Today a large number of competitors, I would venture, compete on a National A licence, many for the reason that it does not require an ECG......
So this is not "Project Fear" but a call to find out what exactly is proposed under "Project Reality".
I would suspect that for many south of London it's currently easier to get to Spa than Oulton Park on a Bank Holiday weekend, if they now need to jump through hoops that were not there before does that drive more competitors into remaining in UK based motorsport?
Whatever the reality must surely be that external motorsport will become more expensive.
I would also add that way back then the carnet principle was well established and most of the kinks had been worked out over the many years that it had been running. I simply do not believe that that level of competence will magic into being overnight on one day in March next year. So would it not be prudent to suggest to organisers that they don't schedule European races until well into the season? Let the real hauliers and businesses work though the car park on the M20 first?

Last edited by Simon Hadfield; 20 Aug 2018 at 12:30.
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Old 20 Aug 2018, 12:49 (Ref:3844954)   #7
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I was competing in Europe before Schengen .
Yes , it did mean a little bit of paperwork doing carnets , but not really any problem .
And then it meant copies to be signed at every border , not just the 1 place which might be needed now .
The only problems came if the Customs at the various borders decided to go on strike , [ like if the sun shone, or if there was a Monday in the week ]. But then I could get it sorted by a quick visit to my local C & E .

Life will go on , Motorsport will continue , imaginary disasters like this is just part of project fear to try to stop us leaving the EUSSR.

sorry, but You have that wrong,
the Schengen Treaty (an EU subgroup, which the UK never joined, hence the current passport controls between UK and France etc) concerns itself with free travel, border controls, and the need or the lack of need of passport checks for travel between Schengen states.

The Schengen Treaty does not cover customs, tariffs and trade law.

Failing an EU exit agreement (and this is by now a likely scenario) UK / EU relations will go to WTO terms. This curently means a 10 % import tax on cars + VAT (7% blanket rate if car is proven older than 30 years). Unless You have a carnet or valid UK road registration and / or can convince EU authorities that the car is in EU only temporary and will be reexported, a bond could be required to guarrantee this.
This by the way can be checked anywhere in the EU and cars/trucks can be searched with no search warrant within a certain distance from the borders (Schleierfahndung). I doubt this will happen in the first 12 months after the Brexit, mainly because there are bigger fish to fry, but who knows.

Interesting aspect: value of many historic racing cars is now so high that intentionally smuggling one into the EU (in other word, a sale withut paying import taxes) could have very severe consequences.

Things used to be different regarding taxes and tarriffs 30 years ago, more lax. I would not count on that in future.

Simons questions are extremely valid especially in the longer term.

And, no, I am not trying to scare anybody, just giving information, that can easily be checked by googling.

As far as I am concerned UK decided to leave EU, triggered the relevant process, so be it. No point whatsoever trying to stop somebody who is keen on leaving, just get it over with.

RuE
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Old 20 Aug 2018, 14:09 (Ref:3844968)   #8
coppice
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Well said David, I fear the lack of self-confidence of much of the nation will lead to disaster.

We are a strong people, and we will prosper outside of the un-elected(by us) bureaucracy of Europe.


They need us more than we need them.

I don't want to throw petrol on the fire but the 'them and us ' comment reminds me of the (possibly apocryphal ) newspaper headline -'Fog closes channel ports - Europe cut off'.



I voted to remain of course and ..err....remain convinced that the leave vote was the biggest mistake we have ever made. But given our tendency to take such an absurdly Anglocentric view of the world I was hardly surprised .
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Old 20 Aug 2018, 15:52 (Ref:3844995)   #9
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delta should be qualifying in the top 5 on the griddelta should be qualifying in the top 5 on the griddelta should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
This is all way to heavy going for me. I shall just rock up to a border in Delta truck and shrug my shoulders. If I get turned back then I shall retire ,move to NZ and live happy ever after. Sorry Simon.
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Old 20 Aug 2018, 16:02 (Ref:3844997)   #10
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I don't want to throw petrol on the fire but the 'them and us ' comment reminds me of the (possibly apocryphal ) newspaper headline -'Fog closes channel ports - Europe cut off'.

I voted to remain of course and ..err....remain convinced that the leave vote was the biggest mistake we have ever made. But given our tendency to take such an absurdly Anglocentric view of the world I was hardly surprised .
What is that odd flag under your ID, and how did you get to vote anyway?

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Old 20 Aug 2018, 16:14 (Ref:3845001)   #11
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This is all way to heavy going for me. I shall just rock up to a border in Delta truck and shrug my shoulders. If I get turned back then I shall retire ,move to NZ and live happy ever after. Sorry Simon.

Hmm.


Not sure you can move to New Zealand these days. If you can it seems they are unwilling to let anyone buy a house. Maybe renting is an option still?


https://qz.com/1299734/foreigners-ar...e-law-changes/


Still, I do have a lot of sympathy with the sentiment behind your idea Iain!
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Old 20 Aug 2018, 16:20 (Ref:3845004)   #12
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Simon,
I postulate that you'll download a carnet blank off the net, fill it in, present it at port for checking & stamping, and proceed. Common sense says Nat A drivers should be planning to upgrade to International C.
Can you please remind me of the last legislative change in motorsport that did not incur an increase in costs - nothing new there!
Any idea how many of the British drivers in the Spa 6 hours would be put off by a bit of admin and a few hundred quid extra?
What is done currently when Brits go and race their cars outside of the EU? (e.g. FJ world tour)?
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Old 20 Aug 2018, 16:41 (Ref:3845010)   #13
Simon Hadfield
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Simon Hadfield should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridSimon Hadfield should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
But that's the point, you postulate but we don't know. How can you plan by guessing? How does an entire industry, which we are often told is large and important, find itself completely cut off from real, proper facts?
If they are not knowable then we should be told that too, at least we would understand that forward planning simply would not be possible.

And surely the carnet is underpinned by a bond, who undertakes to underwrite that?
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Old 20 Aug 2018, 16:45 (Ref:3845012)   #14
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Simon is right to ask these questions, and the trouble with any of these discussions is that they end up being dominated by those who want to reverse the decision and those who do not. The future planning for the country has been wrecked by this, and you only need to read from the top of this forum to see hear is no different.

Two years ago I went to Monza with a single seater which has a V5C. I went through non-EU Switzerland. The route is easier. I had to leave the EU and return...the same on the way back. I stopped at customs on the way south going into Switzerland. A guy came and said hi. He said wait there. 5 minutes later his boss came out of the office and asked if it was a Ferrari. When I said no, he left. He was only interested in Ferraris. The border chap then said there was no reason for us to have stopped and he was only trying to cheer his boss up!

As I understand it you can do events in Switzerland with a National A licence. Can anyone confirm? If so, then why should it be any different for the UK. There should be recognition of the licences around Europe. If you look in the Blue book then it does mention "EU and comparable countries". where Nat A licences are valid. I would hope that the MSA are on top of this, rather than focusing on some pet academy project that their mag is full of.

The issue of movement of single seaters/trailers/tools etc must surely be sorted. The caravan owners will have the same issue one assumes
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Old 20 Aug 2018, 16:47 (Ref:3845013)   #15
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Simon,
I postulate that you'll download a carnet blank off the net, fill it in, present it at port for checking & stamping, and proceed. Common sense says Nat A drivers should be planning to upgrade to International C.
Can you please remind me of the last legislative change in motorsport that did not incur an increase in costs - nothing new there!
Any idea how many of the British drivers in the Spa 6 hours would be put off by a bit of admin and a few hundred quid extra?
What is done currently when Brits go and race their cars outside of the EU? (e.g. FJ world tour)?

Things could get interesting as they were "in the old days".


On my way to a certain race in the south of France back in the carnet loving 70s I arrived on the other side of the channel and as I headed for the carnet stamping office noticed the March transporter parked up.



Greeted the driver in passing and he informed us that he had been there for 2 days and the French customs had been through everything he was transporting down to every nut and bolt drawer. We had the documents signed promptly and left him to it.


Returning a week or so later, after a test day diversion on the return journey, I came upon the Frank Williams truck still waiting to get on a ferry. Its driver told me he had been stuck there for a couple of days due to some paperwork anomalies - something along the lines that on the way out they had inadvertently presented for signature a couple of carnets for engines that they did not actually have with them on the trip. On the return the customs people decided they wanted to see the engines ... and as he could not produce them it was decided that they must have been imported and sold so payment was due for the duty.


All good fun I suppose.



Mind you that was at a time when France in particular seemed especially keen to ensure that pertinent taxes were being collected and local manufacturing was protected.



Nothing wrong with that. The UK was doing the same thing to protect, for example, British Leyland.


Hmm.


Maybe, if BMW take fright about whatever Brexit turns out to be we could buy MINI back from them for a quid.


Rebrand it Triumph?
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