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Old 20 Aug 2018, 17:01 (Ref:3845017)   #16
Mike Bell
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Iím sure thereís going to be new challenges to face when crossing borders- or old challenges revisited. I was also around when we had to do all the carnet stuff at every border.....

Regarding movement of goods, my main concern though is whether the channel ports will be able to cope with any additional bureaucracy foisted upon us. I can see EuroTunnel, Calais, Dunkirk and Dover really struggling (more than now) if there are more formalities to be carried out when handling commercial traffic and their loads. Itís bad enough at Dunkirk now, with check in, two separate passport controls and two customs searches before you get near a ship! Maybe Portsmouth and Harwich would be less affected due to their much smaller throughput in comparison.

Regarding competing in Europe, it would be good to know that the MSA are on the case regarding any possible change in licence requirements or U.K. Organiser red tape. Iím not holding my breath though.... Main problem seems to be that our government really have no idea of what will happen in the event of Ďno dealí, so not much hope for anyone else.

As for Ďmoving to NZí, I would imagine the red tape to achieve that would make anything brexit lands us with insignificant in comparison! Now Portugal......
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Old 20 Aug 2018, 17:10 (Ref:3845018)   #17
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Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield View Post
But that's the point, you postulate but we don't know. How can you plan by guessing? How does an entire industry, which we are often told is large and important, find itself completely cut off from real, proper facts?
If they are not knowable then we should be told that too, at least we would understand that forward planning simply would not be possible.

And surely the carnet is underpinned by a bond, who undertakes to underwrite that?
I agree that the information has not been made public , but perhaps that is because there are still desperate attempts to stop the whole thing & therefore the rules are not yet fixed .

But you could try asking Customs & Excise what might be the new rules .
I did find them quite helpful in the past , [ but who knows now ] .

I did something like 60 odd events over Europe in the 80s & 90s .
From memory , the carnets did not cost anything at all , except my time in filling in the paperwork , [ 2 copies for every border crossed ].
Also , I used to often get start money on events , [sometimes £1000 or so ] , & checked with the relevant authorities how that stood for tax , & even if it meant that I needed business insurance for my motors .
But was told then that , if I was not making a profit as a business , nothing was needed in terms of paperwork for that .
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Old 20 Aug 2018, 17:15 (Ref:3845019)   #18
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Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield View Post
But that's the point, you postulate but we don't know. How can you plan by guessing? How does an entire industry, which we are often told is large and important, find itself completely cut off from real, proper facts?
If they are not knowable then we should be told that too, at least we would understand that forward planning simply would not be possible.

And surely the carnet is underpinned by a bond, who undertakes to underwrite that?
Simon, I have little doubt that Historic Racing will come within the scope of whatever regulations the UK/EU come up with, after all it is highly unlikely that the negotiators on either side will be bothered about 'your' plight. Some blanket set of rules that cover many eventualities will apply, and people will soon sort out which parts they have to bother with in regard to there individual needs. It cannot be in anybody's interest to inhibit mutual border crossing. Hopefully the MSA will be lobbying on your behalf.
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Old 20 Aug 2018, 17:44 (Ref:3845029)   #19
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Simon, to try to find an answer to your first question, I think you can compete anywhere with an international C racing licence, its the principle of international. This must be stated in appendix.
In France, I think that a national licence and a letter of agreement from our federation is enough to enter if, and only if, a race or a series is organised abroad by a French organiser.
The carnet thing, we already know it, can be simple or a hassle often depending on the custom officers.
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Old 20 Aug 2018, 20:26 (Ref:3845063)   #20
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Regarding the processing of the paperwork at the Border, as someone who used to do the job in the days before free movement of goods around the EU was introduced and will (may?) be doing it come March, can I chuck in a couple of observations...

In the 'old' days, the carnet & import/export paperwork was produced direct to the Customs office at the Port and was cleared there in one transaction. These days, although the Carnet (or whatever is introduced) will need to be produced to the Border Force at the port, the clearance paperwork will need to be submitted separately to the central HMRC processing unit in Salford and it will be up to Border Force to complete the Carnet and let HMRC in Salford know it's OK to clear. Don't expect the immediate clearance you'd expect.

In November HMRC will be introducing a new entry clearance system in parallel with the old one, with full replacement due in March - nobody knows if it will be able to cope with the volume of declarations if the "hard" Brexit happens.

We know as much about what is going to happen as you do!
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Old 21 Aug 2018, 02:15 (Ref:3845103)   #21
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But that's the point, you postulate but we don't know. ...........

And surely the carnet is underpinned by a bond, who undertakes to underwrite that?
Well I at least tried to answer your question but am the first to admit I'm not the best person to answer it. Who else have you asked?
HMRC? Border Force? MSA? MIA? your local MP? the CBI? Local Chamber of Commerce? Someone else I've not thought of? Anyone?
I want to believe that someone of your standing in the industry has done more than just have a vent on a forum

Back to carnets, IIRC back in the old days the only European country requiring a bond for taking a car in was Spain, never did understand why...
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Old 21 Aug 2018, 07:32 (Ref:3845119)   #22
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>>>>>>>>>>Any idea how many of the British drivers in the Spa 6 hours would be put off by a bit of admin and a few hundred quid extra?

Delta has already answered that question. If that most prolific and gentlemanly of racers CBA with the paperwork, what price the rest of the not-so-committed grid?

The whole thing is an utter shambles. However don't we have a two year transition period while we raise the cash? Isn't the real deadline March 2021 or have I misunderstood? Whatever, none of our current leaders have the faintest glimmering of an idea on what to do. How can we get to six months out and not have all our ducks in a row and be telling business how it will work?

Perhaps in July 2020 there'll be another "transition period" before full withdrawal being kicked into the long grass one or two "transition periods" down the line. As Sir Humphrey would have prevaricated: "Oh Minister, Brexit is a tremendous idea. But we need to investigate the ramifications, legal problems, security problems, that kind of thing. But a WONDERFUL idea Minister. In the fullness of time. At the appropriate juncture. "

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Old 21 Aug 2018, 07:32 (Ref:3845120)   #23
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What is that odd flag under your ID, and how did you get to vote anyway?


My mum was Australian and I am named after my Aussie uncle, whose Halifax was shot down in the war. But I am 100% Yorkshire , if pro EU . OK ?
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Old 21 Aug 2018, 08:18 (Ref:3845123)   #24
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My mum was Australian and I am named after my Aussie uncle, whose Halifax was shot down in the war. But I am 100% Yorkshire , if pro EU . OK ?
Didn't some of them blighters shoot down your uncle?
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Old 21 Aug 2018, 08:20 (Ref:3845124)   #25
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I'm so young, I've no idea what a carnet is.

As has been stated, the stark reality is no one from the bottom feeders at the top, and down, has a bloody clue what's going on or what will happen.

We've been intergrated with Europe for 2 generations, therefore there can't be more than a handful left in the country who raced internationally before that who are still doing so. the whole world has changed immeasurably, as has the population.

Does the FIA have a stance? Will any of our Cars comply with Euro safety regulations in a year or more? Will it be a case of an HTP being a necessity and doubling in price? An FIA International license will be a minimum requirement I'm sure, not really a problem for most as we already have them.

On the bright side, the RAC can continue like the FA and ECB, in true British fashion, so FE's can be hand pumped, string back gloves and cork helmets will become derigeur again. Goodwood will soon be the safest circuit in the country

Mrs Zef is Strayan, she's recently had to renew her passport with biometric bits for her indefinite leave to remain (law changed, 3 years ago but no one said anything, we found out when she changed jobs recently) The home office offer a one day service (£850) but there's a 45 day waiting list. Bear in mind nothing's actually happened yet . . . She' currently document free, 4 weeks and still waiting,( so no summer holiday for us!) We're applying for an Aus passport for Arthur, and I'm investigating alternatives as well. Car is for sale. It's tempting to cash in on the house as well, while it's still worth something.

As Simon said, from Sussex, we can be at Spa in 6 or so hours, Dijon about 8. Last time I went to OP it took over 6, last time we visited friends in the lakes it took more than 8. We're more Brittany than Yorkshire here.
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Old 21 Aug 2018, 08:27 (Ref:3845126)   #26
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I have been asking in many places! The simple point is that NO ONE KNOWS! The post from Alfaholic is the most clear information I've had to date, and even he cautions that they don't really know.
I do realise that we are some way down the food chain but as I've said earlier it's not a sound basis to try to run a business.
I have seen the 24 month "transition period" concept floated in the news but again does that include sport? Do we have to comply with all the intended paperwork during that period or can we carry on as we are?
It's not fun being a mushroom......
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Old 21 Aug 2018, 08:39 (Ref:3845127)   #27
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From my discussions with the FIA their current take on it is that for them everything remains as it is. The HTP is an International document and their licencing requirements are laid down in the appropriate Appendix. The licences of course are a matter for the ASN, which are sovereign in their own border, and what the EU and the UK decide to do is nothing to do with them.
Reading between the lines I suspect much like the "no deal" exit would lead to WTO terms similarly any ending of licence reciprocity would bring in full International format racing, with all that entails.
I also rather get the feeling that it's not their problem so they have not lost too much sleep.
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Old 21 Aug 2018, 09:19 (Ref:3845135)   #28
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Simon,
I postulate that you'll download a carnet blank off the net, fill it in, present it at port for checking & stamping, and proceed.
According to their adverts, Cars UK negotiated the exclusive rights for issuing the relevant customs carnet's in the UK sometime ago.

The point of a customs carnet is to show that you have entrusted someone (I forget who - it's a while since I last applied for one!) with enough money to cover potential duties/taxes - e.g. the amount of import duty etc. that would be due if the vehicle does not leave the country.

It is possible that this could be done online assuming you have a high enough credit card limit or have transferred the funds but is likely to be as painful as it always was.

Of course in the old days the values stated for cars was occasionally recorded inaccurately.
In my experience, F3000 teams usually hoped they had been through the customs post before the big budget teams turned up because it was difficult explaining why your car cost a tenth of the price of theirs (hence only depositing a tenth of the amount of money).

And these days it is much easier for customs to check the value of a car so it will be harder to 'save money' (you aren't really saving money just losing access to it until you return the carnet).
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Old 21 Aug 2018, 09:22 (Ref:3845136)   #29
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Simon makes some very good points and I don't profess to know the answers. I do, however think we are being somewhat pessimistic with the border issues. There is no such thing as crashing out, or no deal, since whatever the parties decide, there will be some form of agreement for continuing trade, can't be anything else.

As someone who has spent a significant part of his life working in countries that require visas and work/resident permits the processes are generally painless and these are countries where the infrastructure is, perhaps, less capable than the UK/Europe. Likewise the scaremongering concerning free movement of people around Europe seems a bit OTT since once we pass into the Schengen area the ability to move between states is the same as now. In fact we all need a passport to enter the Schengen area now, so what is the difference? The answer is nothing, unless you want to work, in which case then a work permit will/may be required.

I do expect us racers to have a bit more paperwork to do but, again, I expect it to be a one stop shop where the onus will be on the owner to provide the necessary proofs, once done, unless there are, all of a sudden, many failures or breaches, inspections will be random. Also since Simon and his team will be working for a, presumably, UK based client then the taxation won't/can't change.

Medical expenses will need to be insured against because we in the UK won't be able to take advantage of the local medical care system.

Don't forget there are trucks from all over non EU Europe coming and going now and we don't see the queues we saw back in the 70s/80s. So, unless there are some bureaucrats with an agenda against the UK, trade should continue reasonably smoothly.

Yes, the FIA should have considered this before now, but they're too busy making sure we all start using hybrids.

But, it is clear that the politicians on both sides of the discussion haven't thought things through and thus initially there may well be problems.
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Old 21 Aug 2018, 09:27 (Ref:3845138)   #30
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The whole thing is an utter shambles. However don't we have a two year transition period while we raise the cash? Isn't the real deadline March 2021 or have I misunderstood? Whatever, none of our current leaders have the faintest glimmering of an idea on what to do. How can we get to six months out and not have all our ducks in a row and be telling business how it will work?
Very true - maybe the ardent Brexiteers "who know what they voted for" could explain to the govt. what that is, then they would at least have a starting point!

The two year extension only applies if there is an agreement, if there is "no deal" then the cliff edge is reached in March next year.
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