BTCC of yesteryear

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Well the historic section is called “historic racing today” and seems to be more about modern historic series and not discussing races and events of old.

I don’t see he problem of having a specific thread talking about the history of the sport.

There is a separate section for “Motorsport History” and that is what is being discussed here, not “historic racing today”

[touringcarnut]

Originally Posted by S griffin

That race has always intrigued me. There’s a few minutes of highlights on the season review, which includes Cleland’s off and Sytner taking the lead prior to the red flag. Also there’s a bit of footage on Tales from the Tarmac, where I notice Ayles also on wets was second behind Fearless Frank, but I want to know more about this race

The late Frank de Jong’s site carries a bit more info, but not enough. Has anyone got a full race report? I want to know how the race developed and who was still running at the end and in what order prior to the controversial countback

Would love to know this as well!

[CarfanLUFC]

Originally Posted by S griffin

As for 93, obviously you had the BMW domination at the beginning, which was mainly down to their Yokohama tyres. By round 8 they’d only lost one race due to the Michelin tyres suiting the awful Renault 19s in the wet. Then after that we of course only saw one more BMW win, but thankfully their FWD rivals took points off each other and we had so many different winners at the end. Of course if the Mondeo was ready earlier it would have been a different story, as Radisich was the only other driver apart from the BMW drivers to win more than once. Incidentally we had six new winners that season, a feat not matched till the ultra competitive 2018. Yes 1993 was a great season too

In 94 and 95 the Rouse prepared Mondeo's seems to really chew their front tyres up. I'm still not sure to this day if that was the set up of the car, the car itself or if Radisich was over driving it constantly in his attempts to keep with the Alfas (and then the BMW's, Vauxhalls, Volvo's and Renaults)

Also, totally agree with you about the 19. Even in the fairly early years of Super Touring that car looked nothing like you'd expect to be on the grid, it looked so out of place. If it wasn't for those superb Michelin wets it would have been a season of absolutely nothing, especially when you consider the driver line up.

Glorified national saloon car cup entrant. Nigel Albon did a fairly credible job keeping the car fairly competitive in the 94 Total cup given the likes of Nigel Smith were running an ex RML EE Cavalier which was no slouch. Even managed to pick up a win.

[BTCC frog]

Some interesting facts from the last few years (excludes fastest lap, pole position, led a lap points):

2018:

Points from race 1:
1. Dan Cammish 110
2. Colin Turkington 100
3. Ash Sutton 93
4. Tom Chilton 86
5. Jack Goff 84
6. Sam Tordoff 75
7. Andrew Jordan 72
8. Matt Neal 67
9. Josh Cook 60
10. Brett Smith 57
11. Adam Morgan 55
12. Chris Smiley 55
13. Tom Ingram 44
14. Matt Simpson 41
15. Senna Proctor 37
16. James Cole 37
17. Aiden Moffat 36
18. Tom Oliphant 34
19. Rob Collard 28
20. Rob Austin 25
21. Daniel Lloyd 25
22. Rory Butcher 23
23. Ricky Collard 20
24. Mike Bushell 19
25. Jason Plato 17
26. Ollie Jackson 8
27. Stephen Jelley 2

Points from race 2:
1. Tom Ingram 115
2. Ash Sutton 85
3. Colin Turkington 84
4. Andrew Jordan 80
5. Josh Cook 78
6. Senna Proctor 75
7. Adam Morgan 73
8. Tom Chilton 72
9. Dan Cammish 71
10. Sam Tordoff 63
11. Matt Neal 62
12. Chris Smiley 57
13. Jack Goff 56
14. Rob Austin 44
15. Aiden Moffat 39
16. Rory Butcher 39
17. Matt Simpson 29
18. Ollie Jackson 28
19. Tom Oliphant 23
20. James Cole 21
21. Mike Bushell 19
22. Jake Hill 17
23. Ricky Collard 17
24. Tom Boardman 13
25. Daniel Lloyd 13
26. Rob Collard 13
27. Brett Smith 11
28. Ant Whorton-Eales 6
29. Jason Plato 2
30. Bobby Thompson 2
31. James Nash 2
32. Glynn Geddie 1

Points from race 3 (no double points at Snetterton):
1. Tom Ingram 118
2. Colin Turkington 103
3. Adam Morgan 98
4. Tom Chilton 92
5. Josh Cook 91
6. Andrew Jordan 80
7. Ash Sutton 67
8. Matt Neal 67
9. Jack Goff 62
10. Sam Tordoff 60
11. Senna Proctor 55
12. Rob Austin 52
13. Rob Collard 44
14. Daniel Lloyd 40
15. Aiden Moffat 40
16. Chris Smiley 40
17. Matt Simpson 39
18. Rory Butcher 37
19. Dan Cammish 30
20. Mike Bushell 24
21. Ollie Jackson 18
22. Bobby Thompson 15
23. Jake Hill 12
24. James Cole 9
25. Ricky Collard 9
26. Jason Plato 6
27. Tom Oliphant 5
28. James Nash 4
29. Stephen Jelley 2
30. Tom Boardman 1

So, interestingly, Dan Cammish scored more points than anyone else in race ones, and was second on race one and two combined. It was only his poor race threes that dropped him to tenth overall. This indicates that maybe he struggled when in the middle of the pack, due to reverse grids, and so maybe he wasn't very good at battling other cars in his first season, although he was already very quick. Tom Ingram, on the other hand, really struggled in race ones, but made up for it by being the top scorer for both race two and race three. This indicates the Toyota Avensis was not very quick when carrying success ballast, but was the fastest car when it was lighter, and Ingram often battled his way through to a podium from a low grid slot in race two. Another driver whose stats I found interesting was Brett Smith, who was in the top ten for race ones, but scored very few points in race two and none at all in race three.

[BTCC frog]

2019:

Points from race one:
1. Dan Cammish 126
2. Colin Turkington 108
3. Andrew Jordan 102
4. Tom Ingram 85
5. Rory Butcher 83
6. Tom Chilton 73
7. Matt Neal 71
8. Sam Tordoff 66
9. Jason Plato 65
10. Ash Sutton 64
11. Josh Cook 61
12. Chris Smiley 61
13. Tom Oliphant 59
14. Jake Hill 42
15. Adam Morgan 41
16. Rob Collard 39
17. Stephen Jelley 28
18. Aiden Moffat 26
19. Ollie Jackson 21
20. Mike Bushell 19
21. Senna Proctor 16
22. Bobby Thompson 15
23. Jack Goff 15
24. Matt Simpson 13
25. Michael Caine 4
26. Michael Crees 4
27. Mark Blundell 2
28. Daniel Rowbottom 1

Points from race 2:
1. Andrew Jordan 146
2. Dan Cammish 127
3. Colin Turkington 120
4. Ash Sutton 87
5. Tom Ingram 80
6. Matt Neal 80
7. Jason Plato 80
8. Josh Cook 79
9. Rory Butcher 67
10. Tom Chilton 53
11. Adam Morgan 53
12. Tom Oliphant 45
13. Sam Tordoff 41
14. Jake Hill 41
15. Ollie Jackson 33
16. Stephen Jelley 30
17. Rob Collard 28
18. Senna Proctor 28
19. Chris Smiley 24
20. Matt Simpson 17
21. Aiden Moffat 15
22. Michael Caine 12
23. Bobby Thompson 9
24. Mike Bushell 7
25. Carl Boardley 3
26. Daniel Rowbottom 2

Points from race 3:
1. Josh Cook 130
2. Rory Butcher 109
3. Jason Plato 84
4. Matt Neal 80
5. Colin Turkington 76
6. Ash Sutton 75
7. Tom Ingram 73
8. Tom Chilton 72
9. Tom Oliphant 70
10. Adam Morgan 61
11. Dan Cammish 59
12. Andrew Jordan 59
13. Rob Collard 49
14. Aiden Moffat 48
15. Chris Smiley 47
16. Jake Hill 45
17. Stephen Jelley 44
18. Sam Tordoff 34
19. Jack Goff 30
20. Ollie Jackson 27
21. Bobby Thompson 10
22. Michael Crees 7
23. Senna Proctor 5
24. Matt Simpson 3
25. Mark Blundell 3
26. Sam Osborne 2
27. Rob Smith 2
28. Carl Boardley 2
29. Daniel Rowbottom 2

Dan Cammish was the top scorer in race one for the second year running, with Andrew Jordan winning race two. The top three in the championship scored significantly more points than anyone else in races one and two, but none of them scored particularly highly in race three. However, Turkington was better than Jordan and Cammish in race three. Josh Cook, on the other hand, did not score many in races one and two, but was the best in race three by a long way, which lifted him to third in the championship.

[BTCC frog]

2020:

Points from race one:
1. Dan Cammish 140
2. Tom Ingram 121
3. Colin Turkington 119
4. Rory Butcher 108
5. Ash Sutton 103
6. Jake Hill 87
7. Adam Morgan 66
8. Matt Neal 64
9. Tom Chilton 57
10. Josh Cook 52
11. Tom Oliphant 51
12. Ollie Jackson 36
13. Chris Smiley 33
14. Senna Proctor 32
15. Stephen Jelley 32
16. Michael Crees 21
17. Bobby Thompson 17
18. Aiden Moffat 16
19. Sam Osborne 9
20. Carl Boardley 6
21. Rob Austin 4
22. James Gornall 3
23. Andy Neate 1
24. Paul Rivett 1

Points from race two:
1. Colin Turkington 128
2. Tom Ingram 123
3. Ash Sutton 114
4. Dan Cammish 106
5. Rory Butcher 85
6. Tom Oliphant 76
7. Jake Hill 66
8. Adam Morgan 62
9. Matt Neal 62
10. Josh Cook 60
11. Ollie Jackson 49
12. Senna Proctor 48
13. Tom Chilton 44
14. Aiden Moffat 35
15. Chris Smiley 32
16. Stephen Jelley 20
17. Michael Crees 18
18. Bobby Thompson 17
19. Sam Osborne 9
20. James Gornall 6
21. Jack Goff 6
22. Carl Boardley 6
23. Rob Austin 4
24. Andy Neate 2
25. Mike Bushell 1

Points from race three:
1. Ash Sutton 117
2. Tom Oliphant 99
3. Rory Butcher 84
4. Tom Chilton 82
5. Dan Cammish 79
6. Colin Turkington 77
7. Adam Morgan 77
8. Josh Cook 76
9. Tom Ingram 72
10. Ollie Jackson 64
11. Senna Proctor 61
12. Jake Hill 59
13. Aiden Moffat 54
14. Matt Neal 54
15. Chris Smiley 40
16. Stephen Jelley 20
17. Michael Crees 11
18. Sam Osborne 11
19. Bobby Thompson 10
20. James Gornall 9
21. Carl Boardley 6
22. Rob Austin 5
23. Jack Goff 5
24. Ollie Brown 3
25. Jack Butel 2
26. Glynn Geddie 1
27. Nic Hamilton 1

Dan Cammish is the top scorer in race one for the third year in a row. The main thing I found interesting here was Ash Sutton, who was fifth in race one and third in race two, significantly behind Turkington, Cammish and Ingram for race one and two combined, but he made up for it by winning race three comfortably. This makes sense with the Infiniti's problem with qualifying, but much better race pace.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by CarfanLUFC

In 94 and 95 the Rouse prepared Mondeo's seems to really chew their front tyres up. I'm still not sure to this day if that was the set up of the car, the car itself or if Radisich was over driving it constantly in his attempts to keep with the Alfas (and then the BMW's, Vauxhalls, Volvo's and Renaults)

Also, totally agree with you about the 19. Even in the fairly early years of Super Touring that car looked nothing like you'd expect to be on the grid, it looked so out of place. If it wasn't for those superb Michelin wets it would have been a season of absolutely nothing, especially when you consider the driver line up.

Glorified national saloon car cup entrant. Nigel Albon did a fairly credible job keeping the car fairly competitive in the 94 Total cup given the likes of Nigel Smith were running an ex RML EE Cavalier which was no slouch. Even managed to pick up a win.

I seem to remember Radisich saying they had found a tyre compound that suited the car towards the end of 94, hence why he was able to dominate the World Cup at Donington. The main problem in 95 was the heavy V6 put a lot of strain on the front tyres. They seemed to have sorted the problem in 96, for although the car was seldom competitive, it did seem to be more consistent over a race distance

[touringcarnut]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I seem to remember Radisich saying they had found a tyre compound that suited the car towards the end of 94, hence why he was able to dominate the World Cup at Donington. The main problem in 95 was the heavy V6 put a lot of strain on the front tyres. They seemed to have sorted the problem in 96, for although the car was seldom competitive, it did seem to be more consistent over a race distance

By 1996 the other manufacturers were all racing to improve and the Mondeo got a little left behind by then on the development curve.

On the V6 isaue, I recall a similar problem for the MG XS in 2001-2002? as it had a V6 in it and it caused tyre wear and unbalanced the car.

[KA]

Originally Posted by CarfanLUFC

Also, totally agree with you about the 19. Even in the fairly early years of Super Touring that car looked nothing like you'd expect to be on the grid, it looked so out of place. If it wasn't for those superb Michelin wets it would have been a season of absolutely nothing, especially when you consider the driver line up.

Glorified national saloon car cup entrant. Nigel Albon did a fairly credible job keeping the car fairly competitive in the 94 Total cup given the likes of Nigel Smith were running an ex RML EE Cavalier which was no slouch. Even managed to pick up a win.

Hence the comments by Tim Harvey a few years back in a 'the worst car I ever drove' interview about it looking like a 'converted road car'. IIRC it was designed and built by Renault's rally team, and it showed!

[S griffin]

Indeed. Jean Rangotti and I seem to remember Tim saying thatt they put a handbrake in the car, because that’s what Jean liked!

The team did miss Knockhill that year to develop the car and it paid off, as Menu finished, with Cleland just ahead of him, in 4th, although the was still never going to be a world beater, so quite rightly they switched to the Laguna for 94

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Why did the series go from BSCC to BTCC? Saloon and Touring cars as labels for cars are much of a muchness as Barry Sheene would say?

Speaking of Sheene, I was watching the 92 French 500cc on youtube yesterday. He revealed during commentary of news to me that Wayne Gardner and Steve Soper are mates.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Why did the series go from BSCC to BTCC?

Because in 1986 there were zero saloons running in Group A - and in mid to late '80s UK, saloons were seen as for the elderly driver, whilst the young, upwardly mobile crowd were driving hot hatches.

R5GT, Golf Gti, Escort RS Turbo and Corolla GT were the cars of choice for cruising, and the BTCC reflected this. Not a saloon in sight.

[S griffin]

The BSCC had hit an all time low in 86. It needed a fresh start in 87. Calling it the British Touring Car Championship brought it in line with the ETCC and the WTCC

[pimmy]

Pretty much every other comparable series around the world was a "Touring Car Championship". I guess the organisers thought they'd bring the name into line with everyone else, and as mentioned, it needed a refresh after the disastrous period of 84-86.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by andy97

There is a separate section for “Motorsport History” and that is what is being discussed here, not “historic racing today”

Indeed

Many of us know my penchant for threads about BSCC/BTCC and wider touring car history.

I suggest those not aware of the level of discussion that has occurred over time might take a look in the History Forum and you will find loads of appropriate threads - anything from the 50's through to the 90's!

That's my History sales pitch done!

This thread should be moved there please hosts...

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Good information.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by S griffin

The BSCC had hit an all time low in 86. It needed a fresh start in 87.

Really? I did a rewatch of the Gr.A season reviews a while ago and it really didn't seem all that bad to me. Certainly much better than the early 2000s or even the Spice-Capri-wins-everything period in the late 70s, early 80s.

[S griffin]

Maybe it wasn’t so bad, but it was clear it needed a rejig, the BSCC seemed to be no longer relevant. Yes we’ve had some dark times since, but the series has always bounced. We have a lot to look back on since the days of the BSCC and now the BTCC

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Maybe it wasn’t so bad, but it was clear it needed a rejig, the BSCC seemed to be no longer relevant.

May I ask what you are basing that statement on please?

I have read this - http://touringcarracing.net/Pages/1986%20BSCC.html - but when the opening sentence describes the 'RAC' championship as being sponsorless, I have to question the accuracy...

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

May I ask what you are basing that statement on please?

I have read this - http://touringcarracing.net/Pages/1986%20BSCC.html - but when the opening sentence describes the 'RAC' championship as being sponsorless, I have to question the accuracy...

rac wasnt a sponsor
rac (royal automobile club) was the governing body in those days.

like when it used to be called the msa british touring car championship. msa was the governing body not a sponsor

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Maybe it wasn’t so bad, but it was clear it needed a rejig, the BSCC seemed to be no longer relevant. Yes we’ve had some dark times since, but the series has always bounced. We have a lot to look back on since the days of the BSCC and now the BTCC

Come to think about it, I guess I only started my review-watching with the 1987 season (Tim Harvey's first year) - seems like I had somehow misremembered that as 1985 and was hence wondering how 1986 could have been so bad. But yeah, looking at the season summary at touringcarracing.net, it looks like it really was that bad. Little more than a dozen of cars across four classes - that's super-grim.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

rac wasnt a sponsor
rac (royal automobile club) was the governing body in those days.

like when it used to be called the msa british touring car championship. msa was the governing body not a sponsor

Thanks - my mistake.

[S griffin]

It always was the RAC who ran the series in those days, they stuck around quite a long time and helped the series get moving

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Indeed

Many of us know my penchant for threads about BSCC/BTCC and wider touring car history.

I suggest those not aware of the level of discussion that has occurred over time might take a look in the History Forum and you will find loads of appropriate threads - anything from the 50's through to the 90's!

That's my History sales pitch done!

This thread should be moved there please hosts...

And the recent talk of 1986 has been covered previously in the Historic Racing section - https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=120493

[CarfanLUFC]

Anyone remember Ian Heward and his Vauxhall Cavalier in 1996 and 1997?

I seem to recall the tyres he was running were absolutely ancient.