The Future of F3

[Peat]

800k - 550k. Either way you look at it, it's still a ludicrous amount of money to essentially p!ss against a wall.

Where do these guys find that sort of money for such a limited (at best) return?

[ivanalesi]

It's more than GP3 and almost as much as FR3.5, F3ES is also cheaper than the requirements for BF3.
If the FIA & the organizers don't act fast, then they'll be again trying to find excuses and blame "stupid" drivers for choosing GP3 over them. Tomorrow is August, all should be sorted out during this month because drivers will start signing up for winter testing and once they miss winter testing for one series, it's much harder to grab them.

[CATMAN]

If Edenrace cares to read my post again and digest he should note that I never said British F3 contracts costs £800k at present.
At the moment from £550K to £650K buys you a British F3 seat. That's what drivers are paying teams on their contract deals.
As Ederace says "winter testing ,no insurance excess, simulator programes" come as extras, then their are the days spent with driver trainers, fitness trainers, fitness camps, damaged parts, testing, and a few other costs!
British F3.
Most of the British F3 drivers have not been home grown UK based in recent years, so they also pay a lot of extra travel and living costs and regular day to day living expenses. As so many are so young that also means they need a parent, minder or manager to baby sit them whilst they are here, at extra cost!
Some young British F3 drivers in that past 4 years have ended up with annual bills far far higher than £650k.
550 or 650k on the contract, the bottom line and truth is that is nowhere near the full cost of the season.
I was pointing out that costs are obviously likely to escalate a lot for British teams if they have too travel to Europe for the majority of races! Based on the past few years that makes £800k in costs very realistic.
Around the F3 paddock it's often thought said that SRO are reputed too be mainly interested in their own needs and a little back scratching between one major F3 team and them was part of the reason the teams tried to ditch SRO last year and break free of them!
Were you not a closely involved interested party in that break away deal Edenrace

[CATMAN]

Originally Posted by Peat

800k - 550k. Either way you look at it, it's still a ludicrous amount of money to essentially p!ss against a wall.

Where do these guys find that sort of money for such a limited (at best) return?

Wealthy families, wealthy friends, contacts or sponsors. And or sell out to a Red Bull deal or the like if they have shown real potential.

[edenrace]

This year 4 races in Europe next year 5 , increase in cost minimal as the extra race is on a GP type circuit where minimal damage occurs therefore less cost for accident damage, basicaly they just about balance out.
WSR budget is approx 1,000,000 EU, GP2 2,000,000, F3 600,000 good value for money when you relate cost to mileage.
The drivers in the current BF3 are 5 from Europe and 11 from the rest of the world, they join BF3 as it is the best for driver training and this requires GP type circuits etc that the British teams offer.

[Go_For_Pole]

... and where is that effect of the less expensive to run 312 or the new cheaper engines?

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by Go_For_Pole

... and where is that effect of the less expensive to run 312

The F312 is certainly a step forward on the previous car and is a great product from Dallara but it is also certainly a more expensive car to operate.

[ivanalesi]

Originally Posted by edenrace

This year 4 races in Europe next year 5 , increase in cost minimal as the extra race is on a GP type circuit where minimal damage occurs therefore less cost for accident damage, basicaly they just about balance out.
WSR budget is approx 1,000,000 EU, GP2 2,000,000, F3 600,000 good value for money when you relate cost to mileage.

I think you can do well in a top team w/ less than that. One of the biggest problems in BF3 is the pound. When you convert everything into EU, it really goes roughly as much as some FR3.5 teams required for this season - 650k GBP = 826k EU and judging by the EU economy, it will get even more.
OK, you have the extra testing over F3ES & GP3, but lots of it is done in the rain and tbh, the results of Carlin & Fortec in F3ES aren't exactly what one would expect from teams with more budget.
Anyways, 800, 600 or 500, it's still way too much money for the real talent to emerge and a back to basics approach is desperately needed Uniting the 2 series is going only to make them look better in the short term. They need to find a way to make the rules and the racing itself much more attractive while massively slashing the costs. The FIA shouldn't listen to the teams, they've proven only able to drive the costs up, they should be listening to the talented & struggling drivers. If you listen to Carlin, every F3 team needs a wind tunnel & should be spending fortunes on car parts from unobtainium because that's what they do in F1, but they forget the most important part - in F1 they also find sponsors and pay their drivers!

[Peat]

Originally Posted by ivanalesi

Anyways, 800, 600 or 500, it's still way too much money for the real talent to emerge and a back to basics approach is desperately needed

but they forget the most important part - in F1 they also find sponsors and pay their drivers!

Those 2 elements work against each other though.

Even 10 years ago a half decent driver could make a good living out of F1 and stand a chance of paying back investors etc. Now most F1 teams require their driver's to bring money with them.

The bubble has to burst at some point.

So, in the short-term, the system works. The junior formulae are so expensive that it weedles out the 'povies' and presents F1 teams with a selection of semi-handy kids with stacks of cash, all queuing up to spend it with them.

But for the long term? The system in broken and eventually it will bring down the whole machine.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by Peat

Those 2 elements work against each other though.

So, in the short-term, the system works. The junior formulae are so expensive that it weedles out the 'povies' and presents F1 teams with a selection of semi-handy kids with stacks of cash, all queuing up to spend it with them.

.

I think that's pretty close, the fact is these days all you have is rich kids racing against even richer kids and never going up against most of the real talent which is just left in the lower formulae, who either give up or find a proper job.

The fact is though, that the performance of a team in F1 is far more about the car than it ever has been. The difference between the World Champion driving your car and the guy that came 24th is probably going to be around 1% of laptime or so, as a result the reality is most teams will be far happier taking the money from sponsors. Nobody is going to talent scout a "povie" these days imho.

[ivanalesi]

Peat, while we can have fun with the current trend of pay drivers in F1, we have to admit that guys like Petrov, Senna, Grosjean, Sutil, Perez and even Kobayashi actually have real world sponsors who see benefit in supporting them in F1. It's not only family or their business partners. You can't say the same for any other EU single-seater championship and yet they want to be small F1 teams developing parts, have big motorhomes and so on.
Of course the rapid decline in the amount of paid seats has a big, big effect on those who have been supporting drivers expecting some future return on this investment.

[CATMAN]

British F3 should be sorting out what it does and for the series popularity or lack of popularity (whatever) on it's own doorstep.
Taking more races out of Britain is not likely to enhance the "British F3 series" and its historical legacy. It may benefit SRO and one or two teams I guess.
As for the budgets and enforced series cost cutting with engines. I can't see that the current teams will want to cut what they charge a driver

[edenrace]

How many times do I have to say it ...F3 drivers will not pay even £300,000 to race on British circuits therefore the teams have to race on tracks that attract International drivers or go out of business.
Its better to keep the British title, we do have 50% of the events in the UK.

Example British F Renault had to close as only 7 drivers even with live TV and budgets of approx. £170,000 whereas Euro Renault with substantialy higher budgets has 35+ entries.

[chunterer]

Surely it's more the case that because the category has become so expensive it has had little choice but to race more abroad because it's only mostly well heeled international drivers that can actually afford it?

If the costs were less, whether that's less overseas rounds or not, more people would do it no question.

F3 is still a car that aspiring drivers would want to drive whether it's around Silverstone, Donington, Mugello, Norisring or Pembrey!

I mean come on, if both were equaly affordable what would one rather drive, GPoor3 or F3?!!!!

[edenrace]

F3 is not expensive in motor racing terms.
This week in Autosport T Carlin stated that in 1998 F3 cost £300,000.
In 14 years chassis have increased in price 4 times...engines by 3...on top of that drivers want dedicated engineers , simulator programes, complex data aquasition and hospitality etc....No F3 budgets have probably in real terms not changed in 14 years but we do have so many different series to attract the drivers, hence smaller grids like many other single seater series, Indy Lights,F Ford, F2 etc etc

[bella]

i suppose that like fford, it's somewhat unfortunate f3 has such a strong history. more often than not it's used as a stick to beat the series with - be it pricing history, "i remember when"s, and so on.

the bit i can't get my head around is where to limit the costs without stomping on the entire concept of f3 entirely. there must be a direction to approach it from. how do you express the need to limit stupid things in terms of the regulations? do you limit the resources rather than the investment? does it reach the point where you have to nominate certain suppliers of parts that are open to development and require a budget cap on that to make sure nobody is taking the michael?

does anyone ever wonder what would have happened to costs if single make formulae hadn't taken off in quite the same way?

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by bella

i suppose that like fford, it's somewhat unfortunate f3 has such a strong history. more often than not it's used as a stick to beat the series with - be it pricing history, "i remember when"s, and so on.

the bit i can't get my head around is where to limit the costs without stomping on the entire concept of f3 entirely. there must be a direction to approach it from. how do you express the need to limit stupid things in terms of the regulations? do you limit the resources rather than the investment? does it reach the point where you have to nominate certain suppliers of parts that are open to development and require a budget cap on that to make sure nobody is taking the michael?

does anyone ever wonder what would have happened to costs if single make formulae hadn't taken off in quite the same way?

I think the most simple way is to scale everything down. If not by pure size, then by working out a price point that works for teams across the table and going to a vendors and have them compete(or not) for the deal.

[brakedisc]

Some interesting views on how to limit costs. My own thought is that the FIA should be looking at the talent aspect of it as well as the cost aspect. Perhaps if drivers had to qualify for the next championship they compete in rather than be able to just buy into it, things would change.

What would happen if the FIA decided that F3 was a 3 level series. Level one would be a national championship running on a countries local circuits. When a driver reached a certain level and had a certain number of top ten finishes they could move to the next level. That would be a regional series, Europe, Asia etc before moving on to the final level which would be on a GP weekend. If the dates were well organised, the teams could use the same equipment to do all the events using 3 drivers at the different levels. The cost of equipment would be spread across the 3 levels and the drivers and teams would get a chance to increase their knowledge rather than pounding round Pembery all day.

On costs you have to look at ensuring there are more stock items on the cars. Limit team development and testing but replace it with racing so that talent rather than the best financed/prepared wins.

[bella]

Originally Posted by brakedisc

On costs you have to look at ensuring there are more stock items on the cars. Limit team development and testing but replace it with racing so that talent rather than the best financed/prepared wins.

that means it's just another spec series, and it's something that it's not very good at being. which loses the essence of f3. then how do you sell it to the youngsters?

i don't think it's worth thinking about it alongside a change in philosophy that the fia blatently aren't going to do. what's the aim of the game? to preserve f3 in a format that's affordable in the context of other formulae, with a clear marketing point and a clear benefit over the spec formulae but in an affordable way.

so basically, the holy grail. but there *must* be a way of doing it.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by bella

that means it's just another spec series, and it's something that it's not very good at being. which loses the essence of f3. then how do you sell it to the youngsters?

i don't think it's worth thinking about it alongside a change in philosophy that the fia blatently aren't going to do. what's the aim of the game? to preserve f3 in a format that's affordable in the context of other formulae, with a clear marketing point and a clear benefit over the spec formulae but in an affordable way.

so basically, the holy grail. but there *must* be a way of doing it.

I don't think there is. 'Development' these days is pretty much all in the area of aero and that's eye-wateringly expensive. It's completely out of reach of all but the wealthiest of teams which is why there are a smaller number of multi-car teams in F3. It's also the reason why almost every other series outside of F1 is spec. In any event, F3 is just a few steps short of being a spec. series itself. Unfortunately those few steps are among the reasons why it is so much more expensive compared to peer level junior series.

[bella]

i can't begin to explain how important it is to keep development as a part of motorsport. the popularity of the spec series has helped hasten the near disappearance of the british motorsport engineering industry. we cannot lose that expertise and skill because once we lose it, that's it, it's gone. and as the general engineering industry is discovering now that's really not helping matters. increasingly there's not the skills and knowledge around to make improvements on the mechanical side besides things like casting gearbox casings in pure unicorn - and those are limited by the existing regs in the first place.

it's not something you can simply just say "limit development" on. i think there has to be an intelligent approach to it from a serious engineering side. from people who don't have fingers in pies and who haven't got serious money riding on the concequences.

which is of course, easy to say

[edenrace]

Aero development with the 2012 car is heavily restricted so therefore this cost has been removed. A number of items have had restrictions put on them as far as weight and upgrades so therefore more savings.I agree with drivers having to go through lower series possibly a power rating up to 150 BHP then 250BHP etc.16 year olds can be quick but do not have the experience in an incident

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by bella

i can't begin to explain how important it is to keep development as a part of motorsport. the popularity of the spec series has helped hasten the near disappearance of the british motorsport engineering industry. we cannot lose that expertise and skill because once we lose it, that's it, it's gone. and as the general engineering industry is discovering now that's really not helping matters. increasingly there's not the skills and knowledge around to make improvements on the mechanical side besides things like casting gearbox casings in pure unicorn - and those are limited by the existing regs in the first place.

it's not something you can simply just say "limit development" on. i think there has to be an intelligent approach to it from a serious engineering side. from people who don't have fingers in pies and who haven't got serious money riding on the concequences.

which is of course, easy to say

Irrespective of how good these people were, there's not much point in having an industry without a customer base. As edenrace has just pointed out, the remaining development options are being closed in F3, one of the only non spec. series left, so like it or loathe it, we have to accept it

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by davyboy

I don't think there is. 'Development' these days is pretty much all in the area of aero and that's eye-wateringly expensive. It's completely out of reach of all but the wealthiest of teams which is why there are a smaller number of multi-car teams in F3. It's also the reason why almost every other series outside of F1 is spec. In any event, F3 is just a few steps short of being a spec. series itself. Unfortunately those few steps are among the reasons why it is so much more expensive compared to peer level junior series.

Again, if aero development is the big thing, get smaller with the wings, less elements, etc. I don't really understand how a driver helps with that anyway, but we must remember that the drivers aren't the only ones looking to move up the ladder. I don't understand the love affair with wings, though. They are completely irrelevant to the road, it's a consensus that wings ruin aspects of racing. It's like F1 is afraid that it could be overtaken by another openwheel series that piles on the downforce, even though F1 would still probably not be overtaken as the elite. And that mentality just goes down the ladder.

[Peter Cammish]

I find motorsport economics unfathomable, British F3 is basically 3 teams at present, I love the throw away lines like its £550K- £650k, lets have some perspective at UK tax rates personal or corporate you need to have a parent in 99% of cases or patron in the other 1% who can generate £1,000,000 of spare cash per year. Or put another way around 33 times the current national average income before personal taxation. The EU countries in particular are tightening up on tax takes and also in case of France marginal tax rates are going through the roof so disposable income is going to come down. Remember the super rich dont do motor sport it is the "comfortable" rich and they are the ones the EU governments are looking to fill the economic holes they have on there public finances. Unfortunately at current costs the market will ultimately decide F3 and Junior motorsport, and when you add in the cost of taking your son or daughter to F1 (lets say conservatively 35m Euro to go up the ladder and do a season with Marussia) then I am afraid even the most prosperous will decide enough is enough, that will in fact be pretty good for sports car racing etc and it seems to me grids for this type of racing are becoming larger and more competitive, time will tell but for me it is nailed on that economics and not aerodynamics will determine the future of F3 and Junior Motorsport. One final thought anybody care to take a wager that 2.0 FR Eurocup grids will drop next year? and also it is said by People who know that the French Car Industry will need a major bail out by the French government which is socialist as we know, how will that work redundancies in Parisan car factories but subsidies to run free motor racing events for the sons of European elites, it wont happen. Lets get real and have a proper debate on the future which has to be a more inclusive sport, also in every other sphere technology prices drop with time so why are motorsport budgets not dropping, I appreciate the labour costs go up , but in general materials come down..