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Old 17 Nov 2001, 23:50 (Ref:175988)   #1
Sodemo2
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Changine gear while cornering (weight balance question)

I would just like an answer to a query I have.
Now when an F1 car is accelerating flat through a fast corner (eg corner 2 at Estoril 94') and the driver changes up a gear, why doesn't that make the car go loose or spin?

As when an F1 car is accelerating, a lot of the weight is on the rear tyres, yet when a car changes up a gear for a split second the car stops accelerating and the weight goes to the front of the car.
So when cornering why doesn't the back end step out when changing up a gear?

does that make sense?

Cheers.
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Old 18 Nov 2001, 10:30 (Ref:176053)   #2
Airhead
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Airhead should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridAirhead should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I think you are right but because the split second is measured in nanoseconds we don't notice a change in the cars attitude.

But the driver might.
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Old 18 Nov 2001, 12:32 (Ref:176082)   #3
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Just gives us all the more reason to respect what they have to do in those cars.
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Old 18 Nov 2001, 13:43 (Ref:176099)   #4
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racer69 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridracer69 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Don't they have fully automatic gearboxes now.

With the technology they have now, i don't think something like this is a problem anymore.
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Old 18 Nov 2001, 16:55 (Ref:176127)   #5
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I think racer69 is right, gearboxes are all semi-automatic (soon to be automatic?) and changes happen so quickly now that there is almost no noticable effect on the car. The drivers don't even have to lift from the throttle. If it wasn't for the incredible physical stress placed on a driver, I fear almost anyone could do their jobs these days...
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Old 18 Nov 2001, 21:03 (Ref:176172)   #6
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Glen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGlen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGlen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
This hasn't been a driver task since button changes on the steering wheel came in. The engine management knows when gear change is taking place (and to which gear and all the rest of it) and blips the throttle accordingly.

The thing is, any effort spared the driver by means of an electronic aid is more then made up for by his increased concentration on another facet of driving - like braking point and very fine steering control. I don't think any of those guys are holding back and letting the car go round on its own.
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Old 18 Nov 2001, 21:11 (Ref:176176)   #7
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Well, the theory is that the drivers can push the cars further and harder. If you don't, you still come last! However, it means that the cars go faster, and hey! Isn't that something the FIA is trying to avoid?
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Old 19 Nov 2001, 17:56 (Ref:176450)   #8
27tim
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Obviously I have never driven a F1 car and every car, corner and situation is differnet! But changing gear while exiting a corner right on the limit really doesn't have that bigger effect on car dynamics as long as its done quickly and smoothly overall IMHO.

as for

Quote:

I fear almost anyone could do their jobs these days
Come on, you don't really think that do you?
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Old 19 Nov 2001, 23:23 (Ref:176621)   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jay
I think racer69 is right, gearboxes are all semi-automatic (soon to be automatic?)
they were fully auto this year, montoya ran with a fully auto gear box.
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Old 20 Nov 2001, 23:39 (Ref:177043)   #10
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They change gears extremely fast and smooth. There isnt enough of an imbalance to upset the attitude of the car. Other factors such as negative camber, dirt on the track, rubber "marbles" make more of a difference.
Jay-
Have you ever driven a shifterless racing kart? If you have, you'd know that not everybody can drive quickly. If you havent, then drive one and you will see for yourself that you suck at driving, and will realize that driving an F1 car is very, very difficult.
BD
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Old 21 Nov 2001, 01:43 (Ref:177092)   #11
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Well, let's expand on this a little. With the physical stress removed, it is just a simple hand-eye co-ordination excercise. With increasingly better driver's aids down the road, it is concievable that the cars will steer so easy and brake with such gentle pressure that anyone with good co-ordination will be able to do just fine. After the Texas debacle for CART, it may be sooner than we think before a G-suit will be required. That would take the rest of the physical effort out of it. Then it would be a mere video game with death as the ultimate price for error.

I think JPM would be the best guy to ask how easy an F-1 car is to drive. He has recent experience with the driver aidless Champcars and could give a fair comparison. But with guys like Kimi, you have to wonder if they have ever driven a stick shift!
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Old 21 Nov 2001, 12:34 (Ref:177207)   #12
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Quote:
...anyone with good co-ordination will be able to do just fine

LoL, with all respect, that’s a massive over simplification and a load of rubbish, you haven’t done much racing have you Doc?
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Old 21 Nov 2001, 15:32 (Ref:177285)   #13
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by 27tim
"LoL, with all respect,"


You start off with LOL, then you only quote me partially so you can twist it out of context. You didn't even bother to address a specific point, you just dismissed it all as rubbish. Very disrespectful and lame. Worthy of spednet.



"that’s a massive over simplification"

Of course it was, but you still didn't understand my point. You have to read complete sentances or you just won't get it.


"and a load of rubbish"

Aren't you a personable guy? You must want to be my buddy! Was there a specific part that you disagreed with or do you always argue with such blanmket statements and leave the facts out of it?



"you haven’t done much racing have you Doc?"


Hey, thanks for making the discussion about me instead of my argument.
Another speednet trick. If you don't like what i wrote, please feel free to trash me personally.

Have i raced? Certainly not as much as I would have liked. My father isn't a Brazillian Marlboro executive, so I was out of luck. but enough racing to know the basics of weight transfer and the friction circle. Enough to know that karts were easier than cars. With karts, it was mere point and shoot. Don't worry about taking care of the gearbox or staying in the power band. Don't worry about missing a shift. don't worry about over revving it. Don't worry about taking care of the suspension by staying off the curbs, don't worry about trailing throttle oversteer, or power induced oversteer, don't worry about locking or spinning the tires, just point and shoot. It was pretty much "dont worry." Fittness was the only problem because the karts were very physical to drive. You got a great shoulder work out.


It was a little different matter when I got into a formula car with weight jackers and adjustable sway bars, adjustable brake balance. three pedals, a shift lever. There was so much more to do to make the car faster. It was a much bigger game in the mind. With the added new dimension of weight transfer, now it was time to think about what you were doing. It was much more than raw physical skill and stamina.

With the driver aids, F-1 is still difficult, but the driver's job is much easier than before. This is why true purists like Nigel Roebuck dispise driver aids. From a physical standpoint, it is probably just as demanding if not more.

Once the physical exertion and higher cerebal imput is eliminated, what is left? The diminished mental requirements and hand-eye co-ordination. Exactly like playstation. Of course you can't die playing playstation. Unless you are playing in the bathtub, of course.
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Old 21 Nov 2001, 17:00 (Ref:177329)   #14
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Playstation is a good point. You could play Gran Turismo 3for hours a day for weeks and still not be as quick as those insanely gifted guys who hold all the records, and they dont even have car feel to go by. Driving is very simple in theory, but theories are rarely so simple in practice
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Old 21 Nov 2001, 17:34 (Ref:177345)   #15
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Quote:
[i]Originally posted by Russfeld

Driving is very simple in theory, but theories are rarely so simple in practice [/B]
"

Yes, partially because thoery doesn't encompass what happens to the human body. No one saw the Texas CART disaster coming because we forget that the human body can only take so much. The guys had no trouble driving the cars around at insane speed for a few laps, but once the physical pounding started to take it's toll, there were big problems. Had they raced, the holocost would have been horriffic.

But I believe it was Kenny Brack who had absolutely no problems at all and couldn't understand what the fuss was about. So, once again, the drivers are seperated by their physical tolerance and fittness.
Once you remove that, it is mere raw physical skill and brains.

There is also the specter of losing contrentation because of fatigue. The importance of fittness is impossible to understate. The fattest guy in champcars is also the first guy to pull boneheaded moves. JPM was a little chubby at the beginning of the year and he had his mental check out moments, but got better and better as he got trimmer and fitter. Sure, guys make mistakes all the time because they are on the limit from bell to bell, but it is much worse when they are tired.
When you are fresh and relaxed, it is much easier to catch a little slide or missed apex.


But the driver's aids take alot of the thinking out of the driving, which was my only real point. And if the physical requirements are removed by the use of, say, a g-suit, power steering and brakes, all that is left are the same skills (good hand-eye co-ordination)used on playstation.
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Old 21 Nov 2001, 19:41 (Ref:177397)   #16
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But its not the physical aspects that make these guys so great. Its raw talent. You could have an F1 car with automatic everything except braking and the best drivers would still monopolise the brake zones and be on the front row. Driver aids really only help the people that need it, the best drivers in the world are allready doing it. Wasnt it DC that said TC was only giving them like half a second a lap?
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Old 21 Nov 2001, 19:49 (Ref:177404)   #17
27tim
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Errr whatever you say Doc.
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Old 21 Nov 2001, 21:57 (Ref:177486)   #18
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Errr whatever you say Doc.
errrrrr, Sure. You haven't said anything.
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Old 21 Nov 2001, 22:08 (Ref:177493)   #19
Dr. Austin
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Russfeld


But its not the physical aspects that make these guys so great. Its raw talent. "

Actually, it is both, You have to be fit or you will be in real trouble after two hours in a hot cockpit with you heart rate around 180bpm.

And of course, you have to have plenty of race saavy too. Like taking care of the car and working traffic, maintaining your posion without blocking. There are alot of things to think about while you are out there. Some is natural, some is not. Nobody stupid ever won the world championship.

So there are actually a whole myriad of skills and physical requirements to going fast and winning races. The driver aids just lower the bar a little. You are right that the same guys will be at the front no matter what aids are used. In fact, when the driver aids came back, Schumacher really started to whollop on the rest of the hapless GP grid, so go figure.
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