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Old 8 Apr 2003, 19:57 (Ref:563140)   #1
x_dt
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x_dt should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Drivers who have struggled in F1 having shown genuine promise in lower formulae

Three suggestions for starters:

Jan Magnussen - won a record number of British F3 wins in one season (1994). Yet struggled with Stewart in F1 and ended up being sacked by the same team who described him as the 'next Senna' a few years previously.

Tarso Marques - another who struggled in F1. Yet (still only a teenager) he won the 1995 Estoril F3000 race from the pole and also started on pole in Pau that year.

Ricardo Rosset - in 1996 he never outqualified Verstappen at Arrows and in 1998 failed to qualify for several races with Tyrrell. Yet in 1995 he won his first ever F3000 race from the pole (Silverstone), won a second race at Enna and finished second to Vincenzo Sospiri in the championship. The Autocourse review that year stated that Rosset was ready for F1 having nothing left to prove in F3000.
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Old 8 Apr 2003, 20:17 (Ref:563174)   #2
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M Coupe should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Only recently found out about this chap (his Nephew posts on another Forum).


Teddy Pilette - European F5000 champion in 73 and 75 but never made it in F1. BRM in ultra decline didn't help.
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Old 8 Apr 2003, 20:20 (Ref:563185)   #3
Lee Janotta
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Lee Janotta should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Alex Zanardi. Fantastic in CART, and quite impressive with Lotus... But his season with Williams was a nightmare!
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Old 8 Apr 2003, 20:28 (Ref:563198)   #4
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Mekola should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridMekola should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridMekola should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Zanardi could drive in Touring, I find difficult see again him in a Formula car.
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Old 8 Apr 2003, 22:49 (Ref:563392)   #5
Lee Janotta
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Lee Janotta should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Well, _now_... I meant in '99. I'm absolutely confident we'll see him with a GTS victory at LeMans in a few seasons.
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Old 9 Apr 2003, 00:22 (Ref:563427)   #6
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f1manoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridf1manoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridf1manoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Zanardi is the name that would certainly come to mind concerning recent drivers. The way he blitzed the field in CART for two seasons spoke volumes about his talent, but once in that Williams, the spark was gone. He just couldn't get to grips with the cars and was just bloody unlucky all season.

A name mentioned in a post above was Vincenzo Sospiri. There is a guy who just never got a chance to impress.
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Old 9 Apr 2003, 01:52 (Ref:563453)   #7
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Armco Bender is going for a new world record!Armco Bender is going for a new world record!Armco Bender is going for a new world record!Armco Bender is going for a new world record!Armco Bender is going for a new world record!Armco Bender is going for a new world record!Armco Bender is going for a new world record!
Some F2 & F3 Champions who never cut it in F1
J.J. LEHTO
Mauricio GUGELMIN
Johnny DUMFRIES
Chico SERRA
Steven SOUTH
Derek DALY
Bruno GIACOMELLI
Rupert KEEGAN
Brian HENTON
Rikky von OPEL
Dave WALKER
Tony TRIMMER
Erik COMAS
Stefano MODENA
Christian DANNER
Jonathan PALMER
Geoff LEES
Pierluigi MARTINI
Mauro BALDI
Jan LAMMERS
Piercarlo GHINZANI
Larry PERKINS
Oscar LARRAURI

Teddy Pilette can be forgiven,even MS couldn't have put that BRM on the last row of the grid,it was dreadful.
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Old 9 Apr 2003, 02:16 (Ref:563466)   #8
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Food Processor should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Hmmm. Can't help but comment on some of these drivers...

J.J. LEHTO Disagree. 3rd at San Marino in 1991 (in a Dallara!)
Mauricio GUGELMIN Ditto. Almost won in France in 1990
Johnny DUMFRIES A goer who was handcuffed by Senna @ Lotus
Chico SERRA Agree
Steven SOUTH Ditto but his career was cut short by a huge accident
Derek DALY Should have won at Monaco in 1982
Bruno GIACOMELLI Agree
Rupert KEEGAN Agree
Brian HENTON Likewise
Rikky von OPEL Rich kid
Dave WALKER Aussie whose talent was stifled by Lotus's utter dedication to Emmo
Tony TRIMMER Agree
Erik COMAS Agree
Stefano MODENA Italian crazy
Christian DANNER Agree
Jonathan PALMER Never did nothing
Geoff LEES Agree
Pierluigi MARTINI Always better than his cars
Mauro BALDI Agree
Jan LAMMERS Over rated but the Dutch fans tend to do that with their drivers
Piercarlo GHINZANI Agree
Larry PERKINS Always drove **** heaps while the paying drivers in the team got the good hardware
Oscar LARRAURI Most interesting thing about him was his nickname, Poppy
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Old 9 Apr 2003, 02:27 (Ref:563472)   #9
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marcus has a real shot at the podium!marcus has a real shot at the podium!marcus has a real shot at the podium!marcus has a real shot at the podium!
Ivan Capelli could be thrown in there as well , he did finished 2nd once but once he got to ferarri his career went head first into a gravel trap quicker than Pizzonia on a race weekend.

Gabriele Tarquini , very quick but never had a great car in F1.

David Brabham , very quick and a great driver just never got the chance.

theres probably loads of others as well.
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Old 9 Apr 2003, 10:13 (Ref:563744)   #10
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ljakse should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridljakse should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I don't know how many of F3000 champions came to F1, but I know that all of them together have 3 (three) victories in F1 (Alesi, Panis, Montoya).
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Old 9 Apr 2003, 10:23 (Ref:563752)   #11
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F3000 Champions

2002 Sebastien BOURDAIS
2001 Justin WILSON
2000 Bruno JUNQUEIRA
1999 Nick HEIDFELD
1998 Juan Pablo MONTOYA
1997 Ricardo ZONTA
1996 Jorg MULLER
1995 Vincenzo SOSPIRI
1994 Jean-Christophe BOULLION
1993 Olivier PANIS
1992 Luca BADOER
1991 Christian FITTIPALDI
1990 Erik COMAS
1989 Jean ALESI
1988 Roberto MORENO
1987 Stefano MODENA
1986 Ivan CAPELLI
1985 Christian DANNER
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Old 9 Apr 2003, 11:32 (Ref:563809)   #12
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BootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
From the top:

Bourdais: Looks like he could make ti to F1 in eyars to come, judging by his early apce in CART

Wilson: Certainly has the potential, but needs the right hardware

Junquiera: Ha sbeen hit&miss in CART but certainly could still find his way to F1

Heidfeld: So far jsut a midfield talent, but his chance hasn't compeltely gone yet, he's an outside candidate to join Williams in 2004.

Montoya: Should be many more wins to come, but we said that about Alesi

Zonta: Didn't get a fair chance at BAR but might find his way back through testing for Toyota, although it's unlikely

Muller: Now in Touring Car racing, sngle seater hopes in oblivion - 1996 was quite a poor field, with guys liek Kenny Brack at the front

Sospiri: Had no hope of doing anything in the Lola

JCB: Another whio never got a regualr chance, did okay while at Sauber but enver caught anyone's eye for a full-season. Would've been upper midfield at best

Panis: Steady but not ultra-fast, got one undeserved win but won't repeat barring a fluke

Badoer: Perhaps the ultimate unsung hero of modern F1. Did superbly when racing, and has been crucial to Ferrari's success

Fitipaldi: Not good enough, quite frankly, and hogged that Newman-Haas seat in CART for far too long.

Comas: Not good enough, showed little at either Ligier or Larrousse

Alesi: Perhaps the best of the bunch, but made poor career decisions and was unlucky on numerous occasions

Moreno: Saddled with a succession of useless cars, his form in CART suggests that he lacks the spark to be a winner but could've been a regualr point-scorer

Modena: Had a couple of good runs, but fell apart at Jordan. Hard to rate objectively

Capelli: Adrian Newey's cars made him look better than he was. The spell at Ferrari well and truly shwoed him up

Danner: I think we can only assume that the first season didn't have too many future stars on the grid. Useless in F1, useless in CART.

Quite a mixed bag, as you can see, reinforcing the notion that the best drivers don't need F3000, and that it doesn't really show driver skill especially well. You can't place Badoer and Panis ahead of Coulthard and Barrichello on ability, even though they beat them.
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Old 9 Apr 2003, 16:55 (Ref:564154)   #13
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esorniloc should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
What about Michael Andretti?
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Old 9 Apr 2003, 19:48 (Ref:564392)   #14
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CleanTone should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Definitely Zanardi.
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Old 9 Apr 2003, 20:16 (Ref:564438)   #15
Lee Janotta
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Lee Janotta should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally posted by esorniloc
What about Michael Andretti?
He wasn't that great in CART either!
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Old 10 Apr 2003, 06:51 (Ref:564785)   #16
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climb should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridclimb should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally posted by f1manoz
Zanardi is the name that would certainly come to mind concerning recent drivers. The way he blitzed the field in CART for two seasons spoke volumes about his talent, but once in that Williams, the spark was gone. He just couldn't get to grips with the cars and was just bloody unlucky all season.

Unlucky?????:confused: :confused:
F1manoz!!! Poor Zanardi had to drive THE WORST WILLIAMS EVER!!!
Even MS or Senna would have had a bad season in such a carriage
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Old 10 Apr 2003, 10:05 (Ref:564909)   #17
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MiniMe should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Mansell! Left F1 to become American billy cart champion
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Old 10 Apr 2003, 10:12 (Ref:564911)   #18
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corkholio should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Ralf Schumacher almost won in that Williams if it wasn't for a flat tire and was consistently scoring points in it, not to mention the occasional podium.

Zanardi was simply too aggressive to be a F1 driver.

If there ever was a guy who got screwed it was Roberto Moreno.

Last edited by corkholio; 10 Apr 2003 at 10:13.
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Old 10 Apr 2003, 12:12 (Ref:564993)   #19
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PenelopePitstop should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Why has no one mentioned Alan McNish?
Also Chris Amon, should have been world champ!
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Old 10 Apr 2003, 12:14 (Ref:564997)   #20
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DNQ should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Roberto Moreno is a great choice.

- 3 times AusGP Winner (Non-Championship, but against good fields)
- F3000 Champion
- Very Handy in Champ Car

Shame he got shafted by Benetton
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Old 11 Apr 2003, 09:52 (Ref:566036)   #21
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nicker less should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
Panis: Steady but not ultra-fast, got one undeserved win but won't repeat barring a fluke

I disagree!

Panis is a very likeable bloke and he is very quick and showed great skill in the Ligier and Prost.
He deserved his win at Monaco!
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Old 11 Apr 2003, 11:50 (Ref:566173)   #22
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Down F0rce should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridDown F0rce should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridDown F0rce should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridDown F0rce should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally posted by Lee Janotta
He wasn't that great in CART either!
Dosent he have the record for most wins? :confused:
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Old 12 Apr 2003, 08:37 (Ref:567045)   #23
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Mattracer should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I think he's on 41 or 42 CART victories, with only Mario (54) and AJ Foyt ahead, on 67.

Up until he left CART for IRL, he was the winningest active driver in the series.
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Old 12 Apr 2003, 10:41 (Ref:567128)   #24
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ASCII Man should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridASCII Man should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridASCII Man should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridASCII Man should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Thierry Boutsen maybe?
Jacky Ickx?
Ummm... Ortelli?

Last edited by ASCII Man; 12 Apr 2003 at 10:43.
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Old 12 Apr 2003, 11:06 (Ref:567150)   #25
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x_dt should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally posted by Mattracer
I think he's on 41 or 42 CART victories, with only Mario (54) and AJ Foyt ahead, on 67.
Michael Andretti has 42 CART wins to his credit. He is CART's winningest driver (CART alone, that is, not including USAC wins - all Foyt's wins were in USAC I think).

Another driver who has dominated in lower formulae and struggled in F1 is Pedro de la Rosa though (unlike Rosset and Marques) he hasn't really looked out of his depth. Recall that he ran third in Austria in 2000 and should have finished higher than 6th next time out in Hockenheim. Ultimately though he raced in F1 for 4 years (almost) with only one top 5 finish to show for it. In 1995 Pedro dominated the Japanese F3 championship, then he dominated Formula Nippon in 1997.
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