Driving Standards

[zefarelly]

What the hell's a journalist got to do with it? even his record of recent historics is vague, biased and full of holes.

I have an Int C license and consider myself a safe pair of hands/feet, I don't think anyone in their right mind would let me loose in anything monsterously powerful or a single seater without a load of proven practice, I've no experience at that level . . . . . you could be an International winning superhero in a hot rod A35 but frankly be a liability and a health hazard in a proper racing car.

Do we not see the same in moderns ?

Maybe the license structure needs a few more rungs on its ladder. Int/Nat A-E ? may help keep the cost down at the lower level as well. . . . as it is I would insist on Int B for any F1 car of any period, especially somewhere like Monaco.

[MGDavid]

which reminds me, wasn't there mention last autumn of International D or somesuch being introduced? Never did hear the outcome....

[skentellytubby]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

What the hell's a journalist got to do with it? even his record of recent historics is vague, biased and full of holes.

I have an Int C license and consider myself a safe pair of hands/feet, I don't think anyone in their right mind would let me loose in anything monsterously powerful or a single seater without a load of proven practice, I've no experience at that level . . . . . you could be an International winning superhero in a hot rod A35 but frankly be a liability and a health hazard in a proper racing car.

Do we not see the same in moderns ?

Maybe the license structure needs a few more rungs on its ladder. Int/Nat A-E ? may help keep the cost down at the lower level as well. . . . as it is I would insist on Int B for any F1 car of any period, especially somewhere like Monaco.

Agree totally, there should be more hurdles.

You should have to prove that you have a genuine track record of finishing relatively competitively and not having had any transgressions. I can't see a counter argument.

[midgetman]

There are two sides to poor driving standards:

Aggressive "win at all costs" driving, then inattentive, sloppy driving without due care and attention or lacking the skill to actually control the cars.

The former has to be controlled by firm policing by the organisers, the latter normally results from lack of racing experience. This is why I advocated ad nauseum on another thread for extra tiers of racing licence. From racing school Focus to F1 at Monaco Historic could be done in a handful of races.

I chuckled seeing this thread title here, it is exactly the same as one I was reading on a karting forum except that involved eight year olds! It appears that across the spectrum of motor racing the word "sport" has been dropped.

[terence]

Quite agree Max, surprisingly enough we have a law regarding inexperienced drivers on The Ring.If for instance, a driver of limited experienced were deemed rsponsible for an incident, the police would auto maticly get involved to the point of prosecution of said driver.
It seems to work! Clearly a deterent to the 'must have more power'brigade could work elsewhere.Perhaps a similar licensing procedure to obtaining an international C should be brought in.Bit like Karting-FF-F3 etc etc.

[Mike Bell]

This business of what can be driven on International licences is being addressed by FIA, but what is to stop someone with a national licence buying a CanAm or F5000 Car for HSCC (for instance......)?

And my own opinion is that it is still possible for some to drive like ***** regardless of their experience and licence grade. That is where organisers and CoCs need to be strong. I'm sure the opportunities for them to do so are in place, it is just that the former need to put driving standards before income, and CoCs driving standards before perceived reputation. I think the latter is happening more often now, and hopefully Organisers will follow PA and others lead.

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by terence

Quite agree Max, surprisingly enough we have a law regarding inexperienced drivers on The Ring.If for instance, a driver of limited experienced were deemed rsponsible for an incident, the police would auto maticly get involved to the point of prosecution of said driver.
It seems to work! Clearly a deterent to the 'must have more power'brigade could work elsewhere.Perhaps a similar licensing procedure to obtaining an international C should be brought in.Bit like Karting-FF-F3 etc etc.

Trouble with that is that all on this forum are weekend warriors so unlikely to have been through karting FF F3 so would therefore be unable to get an international licence and therefore would be unable to run round aforementioned Ring or legendary Spa.

Mike is right - the organizers need to be brave and police their series. To be fair most do as they understand turning a blind eye is self defeating as it will eventually lead to smaller grids. As has been said before it is mainly the periodic high profile races that cause the problems, there is one notable exception - Goodwood. Many could learn from their zero tolerance policy.

[Peter Mallett]

I think that by applying legislation law to racing series will do nothing to reduce the instances of poor driving, it will merely cost us all more to compete. Indeed we tend to forget that, certainly in "Anglo Saxon" jurisdictions, we each owe a duty of care to our fellow competitors, thus we are open to be sued for negligence in the event of an accident. This is the case with many sports such as rugby.

Ultimately I think organisers should make this clear to competitors and as Simon says they should also police their series better. I recall the CTCRC banned a few drivers who were deliberately setting out to punt cars off the track and indeed one family in particular were heard to incite their driver to do these things. He was also banned.

[terence]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

Trouble with that is that all on this forum are weekend warriors so unlikely to have been through karting FF F3 so would therefore be unable to get an international licence and therefore would be unable to run round aforementioned Ring or legendary Spa.

Mike is right - the organizers need to be brave and police their series. To be fair most do as they understand turning a blind eye is self defeating as it will eventually lead to smaller grids. As has been said before it is mainly the periodic high profile races that cause the problems, there is one notable exception - Goodwood. Many could learn from their zero tolerance policy.

FFetc was meant as an aside as to how drivers upgrade to F1, or if you like, sliding scale.All this is nothing new-I think that in the USA type historic meetings they have a system whereby if you damage another car, you will have a lot of questions to answer and possibly be banned from that series.Remember the German driver hitting the TVR at Spa? He found it very difficult to get an entry in ANY historic series afterwards.

[simon drabble]

If you are referring to the crash during the safety car period in the 05 6 Hour I do indeed - the extended safety car period cost me a podium!
Have you started a new login?!

[Mike Bell]

The second FF1600 race at Snetterton last weekend was ample proof of how close historic racing can be without contact. And if you read the comments from one of the drivers involved in the close finish, sounds like they were having FUN, just enjoying racing each other........

It is all just a sport, after all....

[terence]

Exactly Mike, it really is planted at orgainisers feet.They see someone driving too aggressively, driver gets warned with a flag. Driver seen to deliberatly force his way though a gap thats not really there, ban him for a race or two.If that doesn't work, refuse him any further entries.

[Tim Falce]

Terence-I can't read a simple instruction-Bower's dual nationality posts have been moved to Delta's Earl Grey tea break wotsit thread, so please keep it there. Ta

[henk4]

Now coming back to Carols' piece, I noted that part of it concerned the sort of moral obligation of historic racers to at least keep their valued cars as free as possible from damage.
Last weekend I was at Grand Prix de l'Age d'Or in Dijon and by far the worst incident was the self inflicted leaving of the track of a GT40 (a rookie in the series, both the car and the drivers AFAIK) that came back on a flatbed covered with a blanket and as people who saw the car mentioned, not much was left of it. Is it to the organisers to decide whether these drivers should not be invited again because they destroyed historically important cars? (this GT40 was sold at a Bonhams auction two years ago for 2.2 mln US$)

Apart from that it took four spins in the Nastro Rosso Series, before the marshalls realised that the Bizzarrini that had just entered the pitlane belching blue smoke could actually have been loosing some oil. Fortunately only two cars hit the armco with relatively minor damage, but should the drivers than boycot the organisers for failing to provide proper marshalling?

In general the level of incidents was not that great (in spite of the soaring heat), there was some overtaking under the safety car for which the cars involved got duly punished, and Mr. O'Connell was robbed from victory because of a penalty for disregarding track limits (which are quite small in Dijon).

Two (French) T70s left the track in turn one, but as both drivers have a very long presence in the CER. I doubt that in this case any measures will be taken.

I hope that nobody here is pleading for the Steve Earl approach where at the Monterey Historics, (where he is no longer involved btw) every contact implied an automatic ban for next year (unless of course you were an FoS, )

[Duddha]

Being a part of the Competitors Office gang at Peter Auto I would like to ad my words to this thread.

I do agree with Carol's point of view regarding driving standards/skills and the fact that everybody should race in a "gentle" way taking everybody skills into account. It is clear that some people take it more seriously than others and this can be seen looking at a simple timing sheet.

What I also see is that we have more and more people joining a sport that is not like tennis or football as we are risking cars at high speed. What is important is that regardless of the value of the cars or the driving skills, there are regulations, a code to follow when you are on track and this is what is not respected by all people at the moment.

What some newcomers do not realise is simple, we are all here to play and have a good time on track but you have to respect the rules, the flags, the track limits and the list goes on... Some are better at it than others but it works like a package. What can be seen as a dangerous manouver by one player can be turned the other way arround, it's all about "point of view".

I haven't been racing a lot but I followed a route, practiced as much as possible in various cars to understand how to drive, then I went racing in clubbie events and then tryed the big racing - without much success but with a lot of fun . But the main thing is that I practiced and understood the way it worked before giving a try.

What I now see from the new generation coming in historics is that they buy cars without having the skills required to drive them or not even realising what it takes to race at Le Mans Classic with a GT40 when you've only done 3 races with the car because when the guy will come down the Hunaudières at nearly 300K It will be a whole diferent thing than Dijon with 20 other cars and it's the same for the guy in the MGB.

International licence should all be the same arround Europe and inspired by the MSA system, not individually by ASNs, in France you need 5 start (no finish) of any type in the last 2 years to get one and nothing else. So you can do 5 hillclimbs and you go racing everywhere else without having a real experience of a track or traffic... Am I the only one to think it is stupid ?

Last, my "off the records" point of view is that when you see how the sport has evolved in the last 10 years - I'm not old but been arround since I'm 5 - It has evolved to a sort of professional sport with big teams and all the things that come arround including the politics...

Of course we need to look and say stop when it's needed but not only we should penalise the "front of the pack dummies" but also the middle and back of the pack when not acting as the sporting code says because if you go like f****** fast and the slower guy you're about to overtake doesn't hold his line, it's dangerous for both. At the end, people will generally say it's the fault of the "f****** fast" car because he's going fast and he could have taken the time but hey ?! Even if we're on track for the fun, we're on track to RACE.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Duddha

What some newcomers do not realise is simple, we are all here to play and have a good time on track but you have to respect the rules, the flags, the track limits and the list goes on... Some are better at it than others but it works like a package. What can be seen as a dangerous manouver by one player can be turned the other way arround, it's all about "point of view".

I heard one name of a person supposedly banned by the Peter organisation. If that name is correct I would hardly call him a newcomer to the sport.....

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by Duddha

What I also see is that we have more and more people joining a sport that is not like tennis or football as we are risking cars at high speed. What is important is that regardless of the value of the cars or the driving skills, there are regulations, a code to follow when you are on track and this is what is not respected by all people at the moment.

What some newcomers do not realise is simple, we are all here to play and have a good time on track but you have to respect the rules, the flags, the track limits and the list goes on...

So much of what you say here isn't restricted to motor sport, it's what's happening in life in general. Lack of respect, win at all costs. I have 12 year old karters who look at me blankly when I suggest an accident is their fault. "But he was slower than me" they say, "he should have got out of my way". They haven't even heard of Gilles Villeneuve winning in a truck.

I didn't realise how lax the licence rules are on the continent. I assumed they were the same across the board. It reinforces my point made elsewhere really.

[Mike Harte]

Max, I never realised how lax the rules have become, full top.

I quite happily acknowledge that I am a boring old f*rt, at times I even revel in being one, but things do seem to have slipped dreadfully since my "day". I accept that that they nowadays have ARDS and stuff, but we didn't and I don't think that it did much harm either.

I turned up at my very first ever race at Brands, with a big black kiss on the boot, having just taken part in a few open days previously to sort the car out. After signing in, the CoC (I assume) spoke to all the newbies and told us how he expected us to behave, and what the consequences were if we didn't. He told us that there was every likely-hood that we would be lapped at some point in the race, and that we should therefore watch carefully for any blue flags being waved at us, and that we should do nothing to impede the lapping car; however, if we were shown a stationery blue flag, we should be aware that the car behind us may be attempting to overtake, and under those circumstances, we must not attempt to block it.

Then he went on to corners, and this I have mentioned before. The corner always belonged to the car in front up to and until the overtaking - and this assumes you are not being lapped - car has it's front wheels level or further forward than you rear wheels. At that point in time, it is your responsibility to concede the corner to the overtaker.

The CoC and others reminded us constantly that circuit racing was a non-contact sport, and that it was to remain so, otherwise the wrath of whomever was in charge would descend swiftly upon us.

And there was none of this namby-pamby wishy-washy stuff about 'Oh you mustn't do this or that again, otherwise we might have to send you to the naughty step. No, there was no black and white flag, motor-racing's equivalent of a wagging finger; it was a black flag and your number immediately, and you were excluded. It was made clear to us that we were to look out for any black flags from the pit wall, and that we would be required to return to the pits next time around; none of this 3 laps for your team to argue the toss with them in charge.

After completing 10 races without any incident or reports of poor driving, they allowed us to remove the X from the back of the car, and we could then upgrade to a national licence. I know that over the following years, my licence was further upgraded, but I've pee'd under too many bridges since then and I can no longer remember those details.

However, one thing that remains vivid in my mind and that that is that virtually all drivers, certainly in saloons, observed the driving etiquette as above. In my time, I raced against some of the hardest chargers and I am proud to say that they all followed those principles. There were some who would attempt to, let's say, "bully" you, but they would all still respect your ownership of the corner if they weren't already up alongside you as you went to turn in. There was no diving down the inside in the hope that the other car would move out of the way, unless, of course, you had actually left the door wide open inviting a hostile approach.

Sometimes, I really do miss the old days

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by henk4

I heard one name of a person supposedly banned by the Peter organisation. If that name is correct I would hardly call him a newcomer to the sport.....

Certainly he is not a newcomer but my point was not about him specifically, more about the racing and what I see today. I wasn't attending the Mugello event therefore, I can't comment what I didn't see.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Duddha

Certainly he is not a newcomer but my point was not about him specifically, more about the racing and what I see today. I wasn't attending the Mugello event therefore, I can't comment what I didn't see.

I was referring to the first post of this thread.....

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Max, I never realised how lax the rules have become, full top.

I quite happily acknowledge that I am a boring old f*rt, at times I even revel in being one, but things do seem to have slipped dreadfully since my "day". I accept that that they nowadays have ARDS and stuff, but we didn't and I don't think that it did much harm either.

I turned up at my very first ever race at Brands, with a big black kiss on the boot, having just taken part in a few open days previously to sort the car out. After signing in, the CoC (I assume) spoke to all the newbies and told us how he expected us to behave, and what the consequences were if we didn't. He told us that there was every likely-hood that we would be lapped at some point in the race, and that we should therefore watch carefully for any blue flags being waved at us, and that we should do nothing to impede the lapping car; however, if we were shown a stationery blue flag, we should be aware that the car behind us may be attempting to overtake, and under those circumstances, we must not attempt to block it.

Then he went on to corners, and this I have mentioned before. The corner always belonged to the car in front up to and until the overtaking - and this assumes you are not being lapped - car has it's front wheels level or further forward than you rear wheels. At that point in time, it is your responsibility to concede the corner to the overtaker.

The CoC and others reminded us constantly that circuit racing was a non-contact sport, and that it was to remain so, otherwise the wrath of whomever was in charge would descend swiftly upon us.

And there was none of this namby-pamby wishy-washy stuff about 'Oh you mustn't do this or that again, otherwise we might have to send you to the naughty step. No, there was no black and white flag, motor-racing's equivalent of a wagging finger; it was a black flag and your number immediately, and you were excluded. It was made clear to us that we were to look out for any black flags from the pit wall, and that we would be required to return to the pits next time around; none of this 3 laps for your team to argue the toss with them in charge.

After completing 10 races without any incident or reports of poor driving, they allowed us to remove the X from the back of the car, and we could then upgrade to a national licence. I know that over the following years, my licence was further upgraded, but I've pee'd under too many bridges since then and I can no longer remember those details.

However, one thing that remains vivid in my mind and that that is that virtually all drivers, certainly in saloons, observed the driving etiquette as above. In my time, I raced against some of the hardest chargers and I am proud to say that they all followed those principles. There were some who would attempt to, let's say, "bully" you, but they would all still respect your ownership of the corner if they weren't already up alongside you as you went to turn in. There was no diving down the inside in the hope that the other car would move out of the way, unless, of course, you had actually left the door wide open inviting a hostile approach.

Sometimes, I really do miss the old days

Good post but I thought it was eleven races . Must be an age thing. (My age).

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Good post but I thought it was eleven races . Must be an age thing. (My age).

Was ten races then changed to six.

[gt917]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

Was ten races then changed to six.

.............. or five, plus a days marshalling.

It is not enough, and as I have said before I believe ALL drivers of any licence grade should have to do a proper days marshalling every two years.

[morninggents]

.............. or, even, 4 plus a day marshalling and an advanced race school course.

Any advance on this?

[midgetman]

Actually, didn't it used to be six races with a cross as a novice got you a club licence, then if you wanted to upgrade to a national licence you had to do six races with just a yellow plate to show you were upgrading? I can't remember exactly, but I do remember peeling off the cross and knowing I was half way there.

One of the questions on the ARKS test asks about overtaking, it's amazing how many people tick the wrong answer, that if your front wheels are ahead you are able to dive to the apex ignoring the car beside you. "But thats what [Insert BTCC hero here] does".