Legge returns to Formula Renault

[mountainstar]

Brit F3 is overblown and overhyped. Atlantics are just as good or better.

I don't know what the prize money situation is now with Atlantics, but a few years ago the total prize fund was about $1.5 million for the season.

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by fantasytoca

We can argue till the cows come home about whether Toyota Atlantics are a competitive series - but they certainly pull in the crowds - over 60,000 people there in Edmonton on Friday for free practice - the day any British junior formula can pull 60,000 people for race day let alone free practice will be a miracle (come to think of it British Formula 3 is doing well if it attracts 6000 - so what are they doing to promote their junior series stateside that we are not doing over here?)

They're not doing anything to promote it per-se.

The 60000 people were there for the ChampCar race, which Toyota Atlantic happened to be supporting.

[No 4]

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

They're not doing anything to promote it per-se.

The 60000 people were there for the ChampCar race, which Toyota Atlantic happened to be supporting.

So what, junior formulas using a lead series such as F1, BTCC, etc, to gain exposure for their drivers is nothing new. The point is that the headline series has to attract the crowds in the first place, which in the main is something that Indy, Champ and Nascar manifestly do better than UK championships, other than possibly F1.

[Kicking-back]

Because there are considerably more people in the USA!

[Russfeld]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Brit F3 is overblown and overhyped. Atlantics are just as good or better.

Nonsense, the current Atlantic grid would be F3 field filler.

[fantasytoca]

I dont buy the idea that you get more people to go just because there are more people in the country - Edmonton is in Canada - Canada has only about half of the population of the UK (and much more geographically spread) and Edmonton itself has only about 1 million people - so the question has to be if British F3 held a meeting within easy reach of say Birmingham would it get 60000 people to attend - I think we all know the answer

IMHO the only UK circuits which have any clue about promotion (and in order) are Rockingham, Castle Combe and Thruxton.

I received many good compliments recently for my site about the British Grand Prix because it actually gave people information on how to get there and where to stay - all information sadly lacking from the official Silverstone website - and that site is supposed to represent the creme de la creme of UK circuits.....................

[Rob29]

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

Because there are considerably more people in the USA!

Not so many in Canada? These city events certainly are popular whatever class they are run for.DTM pulled more customers to Norisring than F1 at Nurburgring. F3 in the streets of Lincoln might work -please!

[No 4]

fantasy toca - I'm with you. Wearing my professional hat of a branding and marketing consultant, it's clear that UK motorsport (in the context of the showcase national championships) doesn't understand the competitive arena that it's currently working within.

Firstly, it needs to accept that it's competing for crowds with a wide variety of other liesure/entertainment activities, football, rugby, golf, the cinema, restaurants, music concerts et al. By the way, you'll notice I've deliberately not said 'other sporting activities', as I would argue that in reality track racing is not just about sport, it's also about providing entertainment.

Therefore, in this context, if motorsport is to survive and prosper the different championships need to be marketed in a manner which is at least as professional as the way in which competitive offerings are promoted to the public.

To do this each championship needs to repackage itself as a brand, identifying in the process the 'sporting/entertainment experience' the fans can expect to see and communicating both in a way that visually differentiated and compelling.

They then need to follow this up with exciting, entertaining races, good/covered viewing facilities, clean toilets, first-class/affordable catering, and drivers who recognise that the their job is as much about entertaining spectators off the track, as it is on it.

Clearly this is not UK championship motorsport as we know it!! Brand/marketing promotion is very average, the toilets at many tracks leave a lot to be desired, the food is usually average to poor, many of the viewing facilities are open to the elements, much of the racing is processional and most drivers could benefit from media training. The only possible exception being stock car racing at Rockingham.

Contrast all this with how motorsport is presented in the US, where the powers that be recognise, and importantly accept, that they're in the entertainment business as well as being a sport. Consequently, they know that if they're to attract crowds from competitive offerings they must utilise first-class marketing, provide top-notch facilities and generally put on an entertaining 'show'. Which is why they get 60,000+ crowds, not just because their population is bigger.

[Kicking-back]

Maybe, maybe.

The drivers still aren't much good though

[fantasytoca]

No4

Quite agree - the way they do it stateside is amazing - I was in Florida 3 or so years ago and there was TV advertising and roadside poster advertising for a NASCAR race which was happening 600 miles away.

When I asked around in the local bar, a good number of people there said they were planning to go because "the racing's good but more than that it's a damn good weekend's entertainment"

While I'd hate us to go all the way as the States have, there are more things organisers here could do - yes I agree clean toilets (or even open toilets (Donington Park take note)) and good catering at reasonable prices (one thing Silverstone on a BTCC weekend tends to get right) are a good start but other examples abound - I've been to a couple of races in the US where before the race they have a "judge the grid girls" contest - great for crowd involvement - sadly I guess over here the PC lobby would snuff that one out before it started. They also had a rock stage with some decent bands, decent bars where you could get served in a reasonable timespan, and a major sized funfair where rides were free if you had a raceday ticket - so plenty for everyone.

[Mathias]

Originally Posted by fantasytoca

...so the question has to be if British F3 held a meeting within easy reach of say Birmingham would it get 60000 people to attend - I think we all know the answer

Well, yes, the answer is that if said British F3 race was supporting a race with the popularity in the UK that Champcars has in the US - say Formula 1 - then I would guess that 100,000 people would flock to, say, Silverstone.

[No 4]

Fair point.

On the other hand, Infiniti Pro and Toyota Atlantic are able to achieve their 'piggy back' big crowds not just once a year, but 31 times over the season. That's the difference.

[Rob29]

Originally Posted by Mathias

Well, yes, the answer is that if said British F3 race was supporting a race with the popularity in the UK that Champcars has in the US - say Formula 1 - then I would guess that 100,000 people would flock to, say, Silverstone.

But would they actually watch the F3 action? I remember standing on a jam packed bank at Brands Hatch paddock bend watcing F1 practice around 1978.Practice ended and all but myself and friend,also an avid F3 fan,left.Maybe they went into the paddock which you could still do in those days. Though I have noticed that less than half the crowd for the current F1 saturday qualifying bother to stay for the GP2 race.
Birmingham attracted big crowds for F3000 headliners though.

[Kicking-back]

But with only 12 cars they're not really capitalising on it!

[No 4]

Perhaps, but going back to the point about Katherine Legge being able to get a drive that her funding would not allow in the UK, being out in front of big crowds and winning races will not do her profile any harm.

By the way, hear from some Indy insiders that they expect a grid of around 18 to 20 cars next year. We'll see!

[StickShift]

Aren't Atlantics switching to a new chassis/engine package next year? Or is that set for 2007?

[mountainstar]

Atlantics have had up to 22 cars this year take the grid.

A lot of good points have been made. In the UK, they are still running the sport like it is 1950. The UK has 60 million people crammed into a space the size of Idaho. There is no excuse for not having crowds of 80,000 at races. Absolutely no excuse.

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Atlantics have had up to 22 cars this year take the grid.

Not regularly.

A lot of good points have been made. In the UK, they are still running the sport like it is 1950. The UK has 60 million people crammed into a space the size of Idaho. There is no excuse for not having crowds of 80,000 at races. Absolutely no excuse.

Yet F3 still gets a decent grid of decent drivers.

Strange, that.

[bella]

yeah, wierd how ex-f3 drivers are way more successful too...

[runshaw]

Haha! I seem to have started an argument about British single seater ch'ships Vs American ch'ships!

[/QUOTE]A lot of good points have been made. In the UK, they are still running the sport like it is 1950. The UK has 60 million people crammed into a space the size of Idaho. There is no excuse for not having crowds of 80,000 at races. Absolutely no excuse.[QUOTE]

I don't think this is true really. For sure, Britain is overpopulated, but why would 80,000 go to UK circuits to watch British F3? Remember that Atlantics supports the PINNACLE of American single-seater racing, so of course loads of people would go to those races because they know about it. But British F3 doesn't support a big series on the TV worldwide so hardly anyone would know about it, therefore there is an excuse as to why it doesn't draw in crowds of 80,000. And also could a circuit such as Oulton Park draw in crowds of 80,000? I was there for the F3 in 2003 and there was a record 16,000 and it was packed! Therefore you can't really compare F3 crowd numbers to Atlantic crowd numbers at all. If F3 were supporting F1 at Silverstone of course there would be 100,000 people there! But it isn't so you can't really expect 80,000 people at a national race meeting like F3.

[mountainstar]

I should have made myself clear in that I'm talking about British motorsport as a whole, not just F3. I know F3 would never draw gigantic crowds. But there is no reason why the UK can't have some formula that can draw some decent crowds that can actually attract some corporate and fan support. Compare V8 Supercars to the BTCC, for instance. No contest.

I've seen first hand the sport in the USA and the UK. There is no doubt the UK has a top high tech racing industry, but when it comes to the entertainment and promotion side of it, it is still amateur hour.

Brit F3 is no different than Atlantics in that only 3-4 out of the whole series will actually make it, if that. Also ex-f3 drivers way more successful at what? There is a bunch of ex-champions sitting unemployed right now. Autosport had a nice article on that recently.

[Kicking-back]

Yes, but the overall standard of drivers in F3 and FRenault - and European motorsport in general - is far higher than in Toyota Atlantic.

If people like Katherine Legge and Charles Zwolsman are the frontrunners then the rest of the Atlantic drivers must be very poor.

[No 4]

To try and wrap this debate up. I think we're all agreed that the standard of driving is higher in UK single seater championships than in comparable US series. However, I think most people would also agree that facilities at US tracks, the way races are promoted and the committment to entertain fans, means that the US race day experience is more enjoyable and better value than similar events in the UK.

So, to sumarise, we have better driving standards in the UK versus better entertainment in the US.

The former attracts the purists, but not the crowds or commercial sponsorship and as a consequence most drivers have to pay teams to drive. Fine if you've got family money, a ***** if you haven't.

The latter attracts the crowds and prime time TV coverage, which brings corporate sponsors and cash into the sport However, if the general driving standards are not high then defacto the entertainment will be at the expense of the sporting contest dimension of racing.

So, the bottom line is that both UK and US motorsport have (different) strengths and weaknesses. Therefore, the reality is that both can learn from each other. However, in the meantime you can't blame UK drivers (who are not blessed with family money) for taking advantage of the opportunity (resulting from lower US driving standards) to 'shine' in series like Toyota Atlantic and raise their profile with sponsors as a result.

[Kicking-back]

The point that is being missed though is that most drivers have to take sponsorship to get drives in the US series too.

If it really was the land of milk and honey they'd have more cars on the grid.

I don't see much in the way of corporate sponsorships, and certainly not consumer brands, in Toyota Atlantic or Infiniti Pro.

[No 4]

Is that really the case? My understanding is that Kevin Kalkhoven has largely funded Katherine's drive in TA, though I stand to be corrected.