[Team] McLaren - can they compete?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by ApexTurtle

Indeed, but my question is what does that have to do with him doing a full season? He just needs a better team.


And Indycar needs a better aero package but that's besides the point

Originally Posted by gert

Another benefit is that on a full-time schedule you have a dedicated crew working on your car who you get to know, who get to know you and what you like/don't like on your car.
Also, the crew is used to working together and not just a bunch of part-time crew members from other programmes your team is running.

You don't have any of those advantages if you're running an additional Indy-only car.


EDIT: And if it's not only the crew as in: people working on your car, but also: the one calling the strategy, the spotter(s), ...
I think it would be beneficial to have a group of people you actually work with, instead of a bunch of on-off guys.

Gert puts it extremely well.

[ApexTurtle]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Gert puts it extremely well.

He does, but I very respectfully disagree. In my view the 500 is so different to the rest of the season that spending time and money on doing that is a waste of said time and money. There are plenty of one-off drivers and teams who do make it into the show. I do wonder, what would have been said had he made it in at the last second? Remember, he's only out by the tiniest of margins!

It seems to me a lot of people are using this chain of circumstances as a stick to beat McLaren with, or alternatively to pump up IndyCar's prestige.

[gert]

Originally Posted by ApexTurtle

There are plenty of one-off drivers and teams who do make it into the show. I do wonder, what would have been said had he made it in at the last second? Remember, he's only out by the tiniest of margins!

That's true, but it isn't Alonso's goal to just make the field, he wants to win the race.
Now when is the last time an Indy-only driver/team actually won?

[Akrapovic]

There are plenty of one-off drivers and teams who make it in. Generally, those are American teams who have run on ovals and Indy in Indy Lights. It's almost like the experience of having run these type of cars on these type of circuits is providing them with some sort of advantage that McLaren do not have.

We're onto ifs, ands and buts. What if he made it in? He didn't. He was close! Well, sure he was. But he isn't in. What would've been said? Probably "why are they fighting to be on the grid? They should be better than this". And since Fernandos stated goal is to win the triple crown, you have to assume that just scraping in would not be where he wants to be,

If the McLaren situation can be considered a "chain of circumstances", then maybe McLaren should be questioning why that is.

At the end of the day, experience counts. Everyone else is gaining experience faster than him.

[ApexTurtle]

That's a good point and I have no idea, but how many one-off drivers are Alonso level talented? Alonso showed back in 2017 that he has what it takes to win the thing. He just needs a better car than this year. In other words, business as usual for him

[ApexTurtle]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

There are plenty of one-off drivers and teams who make it in. Generally, those are American teams who have run on ovals and Indy in Indy Lights. It's almost like the experience of having run these type of cars on these type of circuits is providing them with some sort of advantage that McLaren do not have.

DragonSpeed as a team has never competed at an oval, neither has Ben Hanley. They made it in with ease. Experience doesn't seem to be a factor there.

It is indeed McLaren that failed here but there is nothing to suggest the experience of an entire season makes much of a difference. This is going dangerously far off topic though, oops.

[Akrapovic]

Of course, he has what it takes to win it. But that doesn't automatically guarantee him a win. Working with a full team for a full year to gain the advantages that gert previously mentioned will increase his chances.

And remember, there are no "better cars". He needs a team to setup the car better, but he and his feedback are part of that prorcess - which goes hand in hand with what gert previously said. When you have a race engineer which fully understands the car, and fully understands you as a driver, you increase the chances of making better decisions.

DragonSpeed managing to achieve something does mean that others would not benefit from experience. However, DragonSpeed entered 2 previous races before Indy. McLaren entered none. One of these teams qualified, the other did not.

It is indeed McLaren that failed here but there is nothing to suggest the experience of an entire season makes much of a difference.

This statement is ridiculous, I'm sorry, lol. Experience doesn't make much difference. That made me chuckle. You're on your own with that one.

[ApexTurtle]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

This statement is ridiculous, I'm sorry, lol. Experience doesn't make much difference. That made me chuckle. You're on your own with that one.

It is meant in the context of qualifying for the Indy 500

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by gert

Agreed, that's what I would do too: Penske, full season.

Question is: do they want him, and do they have room - or are they willing to make room for him?

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I'd be going to Penske and asking to run a full season to be honest. If he's serious about the triple, he needs to commit to Indy full time. McLaren aren't going to cut it.

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

What I don't understand, is why Zak Brown thought hooking up with Carlin was a good idea. Their experience is minimal and that's been born out by the dismal qualifying results, with only one car on the grid.

Why did they bother to test at TMS? TMS and IMS are completely different tracks. Someone really didn't think this one through.

It would behoove Zak Brown, to start making overtures to some of the top teams.

The reason McLaren ended up with Carlin is basically that's the only Chevy option left in the field without going at it alone.

Penske: NO CHANCE IN HELL there, he has his team and isn't selling franchises any time soon

ECR: Second best Chevy option, apparently it was rumored Ed Carpenter threw out a HUGE number to run as the third car. It was rumored to be enough to run the car all season just to run Indy. Otherwise, Ed Carpenter is staying in a car himself as he loves Indy and does well. Ed Jones is his driver so not taking him out of the seat for Indy and McLaren. Piggot's seat maybe, but Ed has all the leverage and McLaren didn't want to pay. Or hold their breathe Ed's family wants him out soon and snap that seat up asap, and suck it up to pay for the expertise.

Foyt: Well it should be obvious but he's not exactly the most open and hospitable gentleman to anyone, but money talks. They aren't exactly front runners most days.

Ganassi and Andretti are both out of reach without a major chance in Honda attitude. HPD seems OK with Alonso and said they would build engines but Honda of Japan over-ruled their decision. That would include RLL as well, the rest are not much better than joining on their own.

The best option for them is to build up a team with Carlin if they have to just for the combined testing and setup books. But they needed to be on Andretti dampers months ago and get the feeling and dial it in. A couple of laps isn't going to do it. And build one good car and plenty of oval spares, things happen and spares may have made a difference. Plus practice at rebuilding cars, might have gotten him on track much sooner and found that .019 he needed.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Penske: NO CHANCE IN HELL there, he has his team and isn't selling franchises any time soon

Oh I don't mean McLaren. Honestly, I see no reason to stick with McLaren. If I were Fernando and I wanted to win Indy, I'd go chap on Rodgers door. Rodger might well say no, and rightly so - as you point out, he has his team. But it's worth asking. Start at the top and work down.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by ApexTurtle

In what world is your engine blowing up while running in the lead group called luck?

Things (good and bad) that are out of your control are factors in a race like this. Taking nothing away from Alonso's debut, but things were very much going his way... until they weren't. To finish first, first you must finish and all that. The 500 is an endurance race and as you know... anything can and will happen in endurance racing.

Originally Posted by ApexTurtle

People are being way too dramatic about this in my view.

Are you talking about yourself, someone here or the broader topic even beyond this forum? You have a contrary opinion. There is nothing wrong with that, but be prepared for people to challenge you on it. Call it drama if you want.

Originally Posted by ApexTurtle

There are plenty of one-off drivers and teams who do make it into the show.

Broadly speaking... I care less about him "making it in" as to his ability to win. If he made it in and then trundled around toward the back of the pack next weekend and/or retiring for reasons not of his creation (very much a possibility). Don't you think that would also be a topic of discussion with the conclusions being similar to now? (Inexperienced team doing Alonso little favors)

Originally Posted by ApexTurtle

I do wonder, what would have been said had he made it in at the last second? Remember, he's only out by the tiniest of margins!

That is a fair question and a good point. It would be much less of a topic of conversation. And if he somehow went on to win... Would have made a great story. But.. that isn't what happened is it? The prince didn't take Cinderella to the ball. So it's moot point.

Originally Posted by ApexTurtle

It seems to me a lot of people are using this chain of circumstances as a stick to beat McLaren with, or alternatively to pump up IndyCar's prestige.

Frankly... I would have liked to have seen both him and McLaren pull it off. I am generally a fan of both. My interest in Alonso has grown since he has moved into other forms of racing. In the end however... the truth hurts as to why it didn't happen. But Kudos for McLaren for giving it a go. Seriously, I applaud them. I just think they should stop sticking their toe in the water and dive in. They are highly unlikely to succeed with the current strategy.

Richard

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

But Kudos for McLaren for giving it a go. Seriously, I applaud them. I just think they should stop sticking their toe in the water and dive in. They are highly unlikely to succeed with the current strategy.

Playing devil's advocate on my own post.

I can't remember the details, but I "think" I remember Alonso looked hard at a full time Indycar ride for 2019, but it didn't work out for whatever reasons (good seats already taken in established teams???) So then you are left with a one off ride with "someone" for the 500. With McLaren considering running full time their and Alonso's goals sort of match up. It would give McLaren a way to, as I say, "dip a toe in the water" and get a better feel for what it takes to run an Indycar team solo, and it gives Alonso a seat for 2019. Including potentially a team he may race with in 2020 in either F1 or Indycar. Maybe decisions to be made toward the end of the year depending upon how the 500 went as well as how well the 2019 F1 season goes???? (i.e. Does Alonso want to race in a 2020 McLaren in F1)

I wonder if behind the scenes they would have had to have known they were at a serious disadvantage to the established team and had little hopes of winning. That my definition of "success" was not their expectation?? A win is a possibility for anyone who qualifies, but I suspect them not making it into the race at all, was NOT an expected outcome.

Richard

[Akrapovic]

https://www.foxsports.com/motor/stor...-errors-052019

That is an absolute embarrassment. And yeah, experience with the car would have meant things like being able to work with the correct units, knowing the gear ratios and having steering wheels available.

[ApexTurtle]

Those are all things McLaren should know without any knowledge about Indycar itself. All race cars have gear ratios and steering wheels. Nothing to do with specific Indy experience

[Akrapovic]

Gil DeFerran used the E word. Like he knows something.

De Ferran said: "We took on a huge challenge. We were racing against some very experienced teams in Indy car and unfortunately we came up a little short, try as we might.

Indianapolis 500: McLaren part company with Indycar lead Bob Fernley https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/motorsport/48341341

The steering wheel absolutely is Indy experience. They had to buy one and weren’t aware they had to select the correct package. They did not include the paddles. They didn’t know this because they build their own in F1. They were a customer here and didnt know what they were buying. Had the been running the program for months then they’d have crossed that bridge a long time ago. This is how you learn things and gain...experience.

[ApexTurtle]

We could do this all day

[peebee2]

They had months to prepare but didn’t.

They begged/bought a set up and forgot to convert imperial to metric!

Then they put the wrong ratios in!

Now I see them blaming Bob Fernley and throwing him under the bus.

Laughable. Embarrassing. Joke.

[Richard C]

Ouch. Well... these are the types of stories that makes motorsports interesting.

I blame Alonso! If McLaren had a different driver none of this would have happened!

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Clearly Alonso is the problem here. Given we all agree that his timing and partner/team selection is horrible. That if Alonso shows interest in racing for you... you should run screaming for the hills! His bad mojo will curse you!

Richard

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

https://www.foxsports.com/motor/stor...-errors-052019

That is an absolute embarrassment. And yeah, experience with the car would have meant things like being able to work with the correct units, knowing the gear ratios and having steering wheels available.

That is mind bending.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Ouch. Well... these are the types of stories that makes motorsports interesting.

I blame Alonso! If McLaren had a different driver none of this would have happened!



Richard

Alonso is still on for a triple crown: Alonso can still get a triple crown with McLaren.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by peebee2

They had months to prepare but didn’t.

They begged/bought a set up and forgot to convert imperial to metric!

Then they put the wrong ratios in!

Now I see them blaming Bob Fernley and throwing him under the bus.

Laughable. Embarrassing. Joke.

Good summary Peebee2.

As far as Fernley goes, either he screwed it up, or it was just plain under resourced. Would probably go with - was set up to fail.

At the time of Fernley's appointment McLaren CEO Zak Brown commented: "Bob is a fantastic operator and someone I respect greatly. His experience and leadership will be essential for us on this project.
"He is particularly talented at putting effective teams together and extracting maximum performance with finite resources. The Indy 500 is no easy race and Bob's is a key role, so I'm delighted he's on board."

https://au.motorsport.com/indycar/ne...392569/?nrt=86

Seems to be the Zac Brown playbook, remove yourself from responsibility. There should be some questions asked about his and DeFerren's roles in this mess. Fernley's IndyCar experience would appear to be out of currency and too "historic" to have any immediate bearing on a competitive assault on a win.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Alonso is still on for a triple crown: Alonso can still get a triple crown with McLaren.

Pretty good. I saw that earlier.

Maybe Alonso can take his curse to Williams? Two wrongs make a right? Williams F1/Alonso as WCC/WDC in 2020?!

I laugh, but I hope some good and future success for both McLaren and Alonso come from this fiasco.

Richard

[Adam43]

Me too. I’d have loved for them to succeed at Indy and/or turn it around in F1.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by wnut

Seems to be the Zac Brown playbook, remove yourself from responsibility. There should be some questions asked about his and DeFerren's roles in this mess. Fernley's IndyCar experience would appear to be out of currency and too "historic" to have any immediate bearing on a competitive assault on a win.

I don't think that is quite fair as Brown seems to be taking responsibility, albeit after the fact. Otherwise we would still be speculating what happened rather than reading an AP article. Ferley was hired to avoid these issues and he didn't. I'm sure there is another side to the story, but these are some basic, dumb mistakes.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

I don't think that is quite fair as Brown seems to be taking responsibility, albeit after the fact. Otherwise we would still be speculating what happened rather than reading an AP article. Ferley was hired to avoid these issues and he didn't. I'm sure there is another side to the story, but these are some basic, dumb mistakes.

It is not unfair to Brown, he only came out following the obvious.

It was well reported that McLaren's efforts were shambolic well before the actual event.

The results on Saturday and earlier Sunday speak for themselves, but people in Alonso’s camp were telling reporters quietly, not for attribution, “We didn’t come prepared.”
https://www.indystar.com/story/sport...ms/3670736002/



Can you see this mess unfolding under Ron Dennis' management?