Irish Formula Libre 2009

[Graz]

The 2008 thread was pretty succesful but we may as well look towards next year. There were a few regulars missing in 2008 but hopefully we will see these guys back in '09 along with some new machinery joining the fray. Dan Daly is installing an Indycar Ilmor Chevy V8 by all accounts - I guess to be able to compete with the F1 mounted hillclimb cars now entering the class against whom he has been giving away 300+ horsepower, in particular the gorgeous and beautifully prepared Gould of Sylvie Mullins.

But I am just a mere fan with no inside knowledge...let's hear all the news and goss from you insiders.

Over to you all!!

[stealth1]

Originally Posted by Graz

The 2008 thread was pretty succesful but we may as well look towards next year. There were a few regulars missing in 2008 but hopefully we will see these guys back in '09 along with some new machinery joining the fray. Dan Daly is installing an Indycar Ilmor Chevy V8 by all accounts - I guess to be able to compete with the F1 mounted hillclimb cars now entering the class against whom he has been giving away 300+ horsepower, in particular the gorgeous and beautifully prepared Gould of Sylvie Mullins.

But I am just a mere fan with no inside knowledge...let's hear all the news and goss from you insiders.

Over to you all!!

LOL yeah was nearly as heated as some of the driving at times ... way too early though to say much about whats happening until things start to firm up a bit more, but yes the bar has been raised with the competitivness of the hillclimb cars.

Would like to hear what people think about the season though, highs and lows, and comment about the class in general ... Libre Racer threw in his tuppence worth on driver ratings last year ... how does that stack up now

Cant believe there hasnt been more chat about the race of the century at the last Mondello where Sylvie and Jonathan both scorched round below the outright circuit record!! Man, what a race!

[Graz]

It's never too early to talk Irish Libre Ed - I have withdrawal symptoms already!

Alas I was not at the final Mondello event but by all accounts it was a corker.

The lows of the season for me would be that some of the regular 'big cars' were not out much or at all. Johnathan Fildes not doing the full season was also a great pity. Jim Hutchinson and his amazing Jade 3 have to make more regular appearances - man he was driving the nuts off that thing at the 40th anniversary meeting, he was on the rev limiter in every gear down the front straight, awesome.

On the upside, the racing was spectacular and close, more so than in previous years I'd say and the raising of the bar in terms of machinery - who ever thought we'd see an Irish series with F1 & Indycar powered cars? We need to get the EuroBoss guys back and do a bit of butt kicking!

I really cannot wait until the '09 season

[Peter Dunne]

Originally Posted by stealth1

Would like to hear what people think about the season though, highs and lows, and comment about the class in general ... Libre Racer threw in his tuppence worth on driver ratings last year ...

OK, I'll bite.

High point for me was the 24ish car grid for the 40th Anniversary meeting.

Low point(s): The cancellation of the Libre race in August due to poor entries and following in the same vein, the poor entry (11) for the last race of the year. Hopefully this was due to most guys having done enough for the year and not an indication of things to come.

I would rate the following based on who I feel got the best out of their car:

1) Has to be Jonathan Fildes.

2) Dan Daly. Don't think there's a lot more to get out of the Reynard.

3) Michael Roche. Won every 2litre race he competed in and often punched above his weight.

4) Sylvie Mullins. Certainly very quick in his new Gould. Lots more to come from him next year when he gets used to it.

5) Jim Hutchinson. Didn't see as much of him as previous years, but when he came out, was very quick.

6) Ken Fildes. What can I say about Ken? There are many guys nearly half his age (myself included) that would love to lap Mondello close to the times achieved by him.

7) Alan Kessie. Got the elusive win this year but was let down by reliability.

8) Simon Mc Kinley. Very quick on the couple of occasions he was out. If he kept the tail of the Lant in line, would be a lot faster.

9) Peter Dwyer. Won the 2.0L championship and shaved about 2 secs of his lap time by year end.

10) Joey Greenan. Did very well in a pretty standard Opel Lotus.

[Peter Dunne]

Originally Posted by stealth1

Cant believe there hasnt been more chat about the race of the century at the last Mondello where Sylvie and Jonathan both scorched round below the outright circuit record!!

Not quite true.

Apparently when John Morris and his team took over Mondello, there was some confusion as to class/outright lap records so they decided to "start from scratch".

The actual outright lap record for the Mondello Nat Circuit is 50.22 by Nigel Greensall in a Tyrrell Judd 3.5 V10 in May 1997.

Sylvie got tantalizingly close in qualifying with a 50.40, and I reckon that on the right day, in the right conditions, he will beat Greensall's time.

(PS, don't get me wrong, 51.087 is a fantastic time)

[stealth1]

Originally Posted by Peter Dunne

Not quite true.

Apparently when John Morris and his team took over Mondello, there was some confusion as to class/outright lap records so they decided to "start from scratch".

The actual outright lap record for the Mondello Nat Circuit is 50.22 by Nigel Greensall in a Tyrrell Judd 3.5 V10 in May 1997.

Sylvie got tantalizingly close in qualifying with a 50.40, and I reckon that on the right day, in the right conditions, he will beat Greensall's time.

(PS, don't get me wrong, 51.087 is a fantastic time)

Good on ya Peter, thanks for airing that!

Like your driver asessments and cant argue altough I've always felt that trying to get mad dog to drive smoothly would b like trying to get Murray Walker to do a commentary standing still ... just aint in the guys nature, so I dont think HE would b any quicker, whatever about a smoother driver ... talk nicely to your namesake, he might let u try!

BTW like your ad in racecarsdirect!

[Graz]

Originally Posted by Peter Dunne

OK, I'll bite.

High point for me was the 24ish car grid for the 40th Anniversary meeting.

Low point(s): The cancellation of the Libre race in August due to poor entries and following in the same vein, the poor entry (11) for the last race of the year. Hopefully this was due to most guys having done enough for the year and not an indication of things to come.

I would rate the following based on who I feel got the best out of their car:

1) Has to be Jonathan Fildes.

2) Dan Daly. Don't think there's a lot more to get out of the Reynard.

3) Michael Roche. Won every 2litre race he competed in and often punched above his weight.

4) Sylvie Mullins. Certainly very quick in his new Gould. Lots more to come from him next year when he gets used to it.

5) Jim Hutchinson. Didn't see as much of him as previous years, but when he came out, was very quick.

6) Ken Fildes. What can I say about Ken? There are many guys nearly half his age (myself included) that would love to lap Mondello close to the times achieved by him.

7) Alan Kessie. Got the elusive win this year but was let down by reliability.

8) Simon Mc Kinley. Very quick on the couple of occasions he was out. If he kept the tail of the Lant in line, would be a lot faster.

9) Peter Dwyer. Won the 2.0L championship and shaved about 2 secs of his lap time by year end.

10) Joey Greenan. Did very well in a pretty standard Opel Lotus.

Yeah, I'd broadly agree though I would have Eamon Mathesson in there instead of Alan Kessie. Wayne Douglas also appeared as often as Jim H so he should be there also I'd think.

I hope 2009 will see the series gain momentum again. Will we see some of this years absentee's/occasional's out in 09?

Re Dan Daly and the Ilmor, is he putting that in the back of the Reynard or getting a new chassis?

When will Driftwood put his money where his (large ) mouth is and come over for a spanking (on track of course, Max Mosely will not be here...)

[Peter Dunne]

Originally Posted by Graz

Re Dan Daly and the Ilmor, is he putting that in the back of the Reynard or getting a new chassis?

Its currently in the back of another Reynard.

Originally Posted by Graz

When will Driftwood put his money where his (large ) mouth is and come over for a spanking (on track of course, Max Mosely will not be here...)

Sometime on the 12th of Never

I agree with you about Wayne. The reason I put Jim in instead is that he has been out in previous years but Wayne (afaik) has only been out on one occasion.

[libre racer]

Originally Posted by stealth1

LOL yeah was nearly as heated as some of the driving at times ... way too early though to say much about whats happening until things start to firm up a bit more, but yes the bar has been raised with the competitivness of the hillclimb cars.

Would like to hear what people think about the season though, highs and lows, and comment about the class in general ... Libre Racer threw in his tuppence worth on driver ratings last year ... how does that stack up now

Cant believe there hasnt been more chat about the race of the century at the last Mondello where Sylvie and Jonathan both scorched round below the outright circuit record!! Man, what a race!

Did someone mention The Libre Racer Top Ten.Is it that time of year again?
Seeing as you asked.
1 Dan Daly
2 J Fildes
M Roche
S Mullins
J Greenan
E Matheson
K Fildes
A Kessie
S Mc Kinley
P O Dwyer

[Peter Dunne]

Originally Posted by libre racer

Did someone mention The Libre Racer Top Ten.Is it that time of year again?

Oh no, HE'S back!!

[libre racer]

Originally Posted by Peter Dunne

Oh no, HE'S back!!

Thats not much of a welcome.Is it because you didnt make my top ten?

Maybe someone else will post their top ten? I may be wrong ?

Any news on next season ? Will Mondello being dropping their fees to fight the credit crunch or will it be the opposite ?

[Peter Dunne]

Originally Posted by libre racer

Thats not much of a welcome.Is it because you didnt make my top ten?

I'm top of my wifes top ten and thats all that matters to me

[libre racer]

I only rated drivers who competed for most of the season.I also didnt include J Hutchinson,W Douglas,J lyons etc. whom are all worthy of a top ten position.

[Peter Dunne]

Originally Posted by stealth1 (via text)

Hi, want feedback to make decisions for 09. More or less events than 08 and where? Single or double headers, preferred dates or anything else?

I know that there are plenty of Libre competitors lurking on the sidelines here. Why dont some of you register and throw your tuppence worth into the discussion?

[Graz]

Originally Posted by Peter Dunne

I know that there are plenty of Libre competitors lurking on the sidelines here. Why dont some of you register and throw your tuppence worth into the discussion?

I'm not a competitor but here goes;

Certainly don't reduce the number of races!

Revert to the double header format but how about reverse grids for the second race

Any chance of a one lap shoot out for pole for the top six cars, immediately after lunch say - wouldn't take long - while someone is on their flyer, the next chap could be on his out lap

Grid the cars up much quicker - Dan Daly and the lads are often left boiling at the front of the grid - every race there are hand signals out of various cockpits to start the race pronto

Some limit as to who and what can compete - there should only be a certain number of grid slots with a risk of non qualification

Make sure the MIA's come back out regularly (Eugene Heary, Donal Griffin, John Naylor, Bob Copeland etc.) and try to encourage the likes of Simon McKinley, Jim H, Wayne Douglas to come out each round.

Get EuroBoss back so we can kick their ass

[Peter Dunne]

Originally Posted by Graz

I'm not a competitor but here goes;

Certainly don't reduce the number of races!

Agreed. But should there be 10 single races or 5 double headers or a mixture of both?

Originally Posted by Graz

... how about reverse grids for the second race

Dont go down that road! Would it not be a tad dangerous to have a Vee/F5/Sheane Rover on the front row with a back row made up of guys 10+ secs faster?

Originally Posted by Graz

Grid the cars up much quicker - Dan Daly and the lads are often left boiling at the front of the grid

Yes, its a problem and one not easily solved. There is a 10+ sec per lap difference (sometimes) between pole and last on the grid. Even on the green flag lap, the first few rows will always arrive way before the back rows.

Originally Posted by Graz

Some limit as to who and what can compete - there should only be a certain number of grid slots with a risk of non qualification

We discussed this at some length on last years thread and yes, in an ideal world there should be a minimum difference of 4/5 secs between the fastest and the slowest (thats me safe ). But we just don't have the numbers to split grids as was proved this year.

Originally Posted by Graz

Make sure the MIA's come back out regularly (Eugene Heary, Donal Griffin, John Naylor, Bob Copeland etc.) and try to encourage the likes of Simon McKinley, Jim H, Wayne Douglas to come out each round.

Yes it would be great to have the above out for every race and to have full grids. For a number of reasons such as work pressure, mechanical problems, family commitments etc its probably not possible.

[Graz]

Originally Posted by Peter Dunne

Agreed. But should there be 10 single races or 5 double headers or a mixture of both?



Dont go down that road! Would it not be a tad dangerous to have a Vee/F5/Sheane Rover on the front row with a back row made up of guys 10+ secs faster?



Yes, its a problem and one not easily solved. There is a 10+ sec per lap difference (sometimes) between pole and last on the grid. Even on the green flag lap, the first few rows will always arrive way before the back rows.



We discussed this at some length on last years thread and yes, in an ideal world there should be a minimum difference of 4/5 secs between the fastest and the slowest (thats me safe ). But we just don't have the numbers to split grids as was proved this year.



Yes it would be great to have the above out for every race and to have full grids. For a number of reasons such as work pressure, mechanical problems, family commitments etc its probably not possible.

Peter, answers to your first 4 points in order (I haven't worked out how to split the quotes to answer seperately!)

1. As it was in 2007, that worked fine I thought. Last years experiment was worth a try but didn't work.

2. ...and this goes back to the points I raised on the 2008 thread around there needing to be some cut off in terms of performance difference and what cars can and can't compete. Also, the front runners are lapping cars within 4 laps on the National track so I don't see the difference in reversing the grid - the problem is exactly the same.

Vees and Sheane Rovers (for example) have their own class they should be racing in anyway IMO.

If the Libre class is to be succsessful and safe, there really needs to be a rule whereby if you don't qualify within a certain distance of pole, your car is not safe to compete - the standard of car has now gone up to effectively F1 levels with the Mullins/Kessie cars. It's incredible that FVees are allowed on the same grid. You're giving the likes of Driftwood some real ammo to have a go at us 'Oirish' there.

3. Strenghtens my argument in point 2 above and it is easily solved I think!

4. Ok if a time difference can't be agreed and the split grid didn't work, at least limit the grid size to X number of cars. E.g. if there are 18 grid slots and 24 cars, 6 won't qualify. At least that way it is in each drivers hands to have to be quick enough to qualify and you guys won't have the headache of imposing a time limit

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by Graz

4. Ok if a time difference can't be agreed and the split grid didn't work, at least limit the grid size to X number of cars. E.g. if there are 18 grid slots and 24 cars, 6 won't qualify. At least that way it is in each drivers hands to have to be quick enough to qualify and you guys won't have the headache of imposing a time limit

And six guys effectively pay their entry fee for one qually session and no race, that'll be popular.

[av8rirl]

Originally Posted by Graz

2. ...and this goes back to the points I raised on the 2008 thread around there needing to be some cut off in terms of performance difference and what cars can and can't compete. Also, the front runners are lapping cars within 4 laps on the National track so I don't see the difference in reversing the grid - the problem is exactly the same.

Vees and Sheane Rovers (for example) have their own class they should be racing in anyway IMO.

If the Libre class is to be succsessful and safe, there really needs to be a rule whereby if you don't qualify within a certain distance of pole, your car is not safe to compete - the standard of car has now gone up to effectively F1 levels with the Mullins/Kessie cars. It's incredible that FVees are allowed on the same grid. You're giving the likes of Driftwood some real ammo to have a go at us 'Oirish' there.

3. Strenghtens my argument in point 2 above and it is easily solved I think!

Graz. As a non-racer you are looking at this totally different to someone who is out on the track (and before you think I'm chastising you or taking the mickey... I'm not).

To reverse the grids with cars that are much slower at the front is absolute craziness. It is one thing to have these cars lapped after 4 laps when they are a little spread out... a completely different thing to have them start at the front and have a Dan Daly or Eamonn Matheson have to take to the grass around the bridge to pass several of these cars. The speed differential off the line is such that it would lead to a dangerous situation, injuries and a costly mistake! That idea would (or should) never even be entertained!

4. Ok if a time difference can't be agreed and the split grid didn't work, at least limit the grid size to X number of cars. E.g. if there are 18 grid slots and 24 cars, 6 won't qualify. At least that way it is in each drivers hands to have to be quick enough to qualify and you guys won't have the headache of imposing a time limit

Limiting the grid to X number of cars is just meddling for meddlings sake! What if Dan Daly qualified 19th because of a mechanical problem? What if Matheson broke a chain and qualified last? Bob Copeland often ran into problems? Do all these people get a special dispensation because they can do a time? Thats completely unfair on other competitors! The only way the grid should be cut off is on laptime... that didn't work so I guess if you pay you race! I think everyone would be delighted to see a full 28 car grid of cars next year!

It was difficult enough to have full grids this year without worrying about what might be out next year. Libre is a great class and the more the merrier... lets not go cutting the grid now... next year might be difficult! There just isn't the money in Ireland to have a grid of F1/F3000/etc... cars despite everyones best wishes!

Agreed with you about Vees and Sheanes being in their own class. The only defence here is that some people share their cars so its not possible to have both of them race in their own class... hence the libre route! Also, others may not be doing a full season in their own class so want to maximise on their own days racing by doing their own class AND the libre race in the same day.

Just my 2 cents... not taking a personal dig at you.

[Thundersports]

I think Mondello may be a little bumpy still for the Euroboss series.

[Peter Dunne]

Originally Posted by Thundersports

I think Mondello may be a little bumpy still for the Euroboss series.

No bumpier than Monaco. Wimps!

[Graz]

Originally Posted by av8rirl

Graz. As a non-racer you are looking at this totally different to someone who is out on the track (and before you think I'm chastising you or taking the mickey... I'm not).


Just my 2 cents... not taking a personal dig at you.

No worries mate, no offence taken

I guess my main issue with the series is that fact that it is allowed to have cars on the same grid with hugely different performance levels. It's downright dangerous. I know Libre means 'free' but within reason.

I understand too that the drivers are entitled to an opportunity to race so it is a tricky one. However, I think in the interest of the series, there should be a ruling on performance differential and eligibility.

Certainly, under the current situation, reverse grids would be bad I agree.

It's a question over whether people want quality or quantity. I'm in the former camp.

[Graz]

Originally Posted by av8rirl

Graz. As a non-racer you are looking at this totally different to someone who is out on the track (and before you think I'm chastising you or taking the mickey... I'm not).


Limiting the grid to X number of cars is just meddling for meddlings sake! What if Dan Daly qualified 19th because of a mechanical problem? What if Matheson broke a chain and qualified last? Bob Copeland often ran into problems? Do all these people get a special dispensation because they can do a time? Thats completely unfair on other competitors! The only way the grid should be cut off is on laptime... that didn't work so I guess if you pay you race! I think everyone would be delighted to see a full 28 car grid of cars next year!

Actually just on your points, agreed, as a spectator my view is different and my motives would differ from you guys in the cars, I fully acknowledge this.

And on qualy, yeah if Dan Daly missed the cut on account of mechanical issues, so be it, he misses out. No drivers should be afforded special dispensations.

[Graz]

Originally Posted by MagnetON

And six guys effectively pay their entry fee for one qually session and no race, that'll be popular.

Just an idea. Do you think Libre is perfect as it is? It would be good to hear other people's suggestions as opposed to just hammering mine!

[Burnsie]

Originally Posted by Peter Dunne

There is a 10+ sec per lap difference (sometimes) between pole and last on the grid. Even on the green flag lap, the first few rows will always arrive way before the back rows.

Peter what was the feedback from the drivers after the rolling start at the Leinster Trophy? I know that it was the only sensible thing to do because of the conditions that day, but if the overheating issue is a significant problem, would it be of any benefit to have rolling starts all the time? It would prevent any unnecessary waiting on the line, and assuming that the leaders don't arrive at Dunlop while the tail-enders are still in the Esses, it shouldn't have much of an impact on the amount of laps before the blue flags are needed!

I should add that I'm not a big fan of rolling starts, but sometimes they're the better option.