Ominous performance from Toro Rosso?

[arthurive]

I couldn't help but notice (and yes, I know it's only testing) that
today, Feb16 in Bahrain, Vitantonio Liuzzi set a very competitive time
especially when one looks at the times by the Honda drivers:
Today:
Button - 1:31.254 (133 laps)
Liuzzi - 1:31.381 (56 laps)
Barrichello - 1:31.590 (100 laps)

If this becomes a trend, the FIA is going to have a problem on it's hands.
It appears that the V-10 powered Toro Rosso (a tweaked RB1 from 2005)
will easily be able to beat Midland and may be in the hunt with a number
of established runners. Undoubtedly, there will be protests because
a) they're running a V-10
b) the chassis is really a new version of the RB1 from 2005.

It may be very interesting.

[Suze]

there was some pics / info of this in mn or autosport today, don't remember - pass if it's any good as didn't have time to read it properly

[QuickSilver]

I have got to believe if restricted V10s start coming to the sharp end they will be regulated further backward. The FIA would have a major stink on their hands if V10s start storming through the field.

[Silk Cut Jaguar]

I think the FIA have said that they intend to slap a rev limit on the V10s if they prove to be too much of an advantage.

So expect Toro Rosso to delay the rev limit by sandbagging for a few races before letting all the horses go and sneaking a podium finish.

[Marbot]

How fast can they be before they're pegged back?

STR say that their engine is certainly not as good as Cosworth's V8,so what's the problem?

[arthurive]

Originally Posted by martyn bott

How fast can they be before they're pegged back?

STR say that their engine is certainly not as good as Cosworth's V8,so what's the problem?

You bring up the main issue.
How much performance will they be "allowed" to have?
Is it OK if they trounce Midland and SAguri, but not OK if they start
to be competitive with BMW and Toyota? Williams?
I mean, if they're easily midpack, then somebody's gonna be upset.

[Marbot]

They could easily be midpack with a V8 engine,who's to know?

They could say it's all down to their chassis and nothing to do with the V10 at all.

Cosworth did tests which showed that the engine would run at no better average lap time than their own V8.

[Dutton]

I suppose though, since they have chosen to run V10s, they have to accept whatever limitations are placed upon them.

They don't have any "high ground" to speak from.

[Racer_kyle]

Would Red Bull let themselves be beaten by their own B team though?

[safc_fan89]

If the FIA have allowed restricted V10s to be used, they can't really change the rule. They've dug themselves into a good hole as usual.

Why didn't they just put rev limiters on all V10 engines? That would have been more sensible than introducing V8 engines.

[coldtyre]

Originally Posted by safc_fan89

If the FIA have allowed restricted V10s to be used, they can't really change the rule. They've dug themselves into a good hole as usual.

Why didn't they just put rev limiters on all V10 engines? That would have been more sensible than introducing V8 engines.

We're going to hear much of this during the season... don't forget that few years ago V8 to V12 were allowed in F1...

Putting rev limit? Why not, last years, limiting the superpowerful BMW engine for ex to match ford's power?

F1 should be based on diversity. Letting down this axiom leads to uniformity and boredom...

[REALIST]

Originally Posted by safc_fan89

If the FIA have allowed restricted V10s to be used, they can't really change the rule. They've dug themselves into a good hole as usual.

Why didn't they just put rev limiters on all V10 engines? That would have been more sensible than introducing V8 engines.

That's what Moseley wanted to do. Because the teams wouldn't accept rev limits he changed to V8s. The hole this time was dug by the teams.

Now, if the limited V10s prove faster and other teams revert to them, then they all revert to them, guess who will have got his way?

[pole2pole]

Is the Toro Rosso team running on bridgestones. I wonder if there could be anything in that

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by pole2pole

Is the Toro Rosso team running on bridgestones. I wonder if there could be anything in that

Nope,Ferrari,Toyota,Williams and Midland are using Bridgestones.

[Dutton]

I guess Aguri will be racing on rims...

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Dutton

I guess Aguri will be racing on rims...

Ooops! forgotten about them.

[manwell]

Originally Posted by arthurive

I couldn't help but notice (and yes, I know it's only testing) that
today, Feb16 in Bahrain, Vitantonio Liuzzi set a very competitive time
especially when one looks at the times by the Honda drivers:
Today:
Button - 1:31.254 (133 laps)
Liuzzi - 1:31.381 (56 laps)
Barrichello - 1:31.590 (100 laps)

If this becomes a trend, the FIA is going to have a problem on it's hands.
It appears that the V-10 powered Toro Rosso (a tweaked RB1 from 2005)
will easily be able to beat Midland and may be in the hunt with a number
of established runners. Undoubtedly, there will be protests because
a) they're running a V-10
b) the chassis is really a new version of the RB1 from 2005.

It may be very interesting.

Teams arent allowed to sell chassis to other teams, so how can it be a tweaked RB1? The best they could do is use a bit of the aero they have learnt from RB1 and apply it to the Toro Rosso car, but its still a Minardi underneath. But just bunging on areo parts from another car doesnt work though as the whole package including the main chassis/tub of the car has to work together. Slapping on a Mclaren designed front wing onto the Midland car wont make it go any faster either.

Besides that, Cosworth (being the only supplier to have both engines racing next year) has stated that their rev limited V10 engine is not as powerful as their V8 engine. I dont see why they would lie about it.

If Toro Rosso beat the likes of BMW and Midland, then its because their V8's arent up to scratch, or they havent sorted their chassis.

Besides all that, how many times have we seen a team do well in pre season practice (maybe to entice further potential sponsors) by running underweight. If i recall correctly Jordan is known for doing this a few years back.

[Smurfer]

Excuse my ignorance. In summary what are the restrictions on the V10?

[Halsey]

Originally Posted by manwell

Teams arent allowed to sell chassis to other teams, so how can it be a tweaked RB1? The best they could do is use a bit of the aero they have learnt from RB1 and apply it to the Toro Rosso car, but its still a Minardi underneath. But just bunging on areo parts from another car doesnt work though as the whole package including the main chassis/tub of the car has to work together. Slapping on a Mclaren designed front wing onto the Midland car wont make it go any faster either.

This article helps shed some light on the issue.

http://www.planetf1.com/news/story_22112.shtml

Am I correct in saying that the FIA have already put a preliminary rev limit on the v10's for next season, and have (obviously) reserved the right to change the rules, should the restricted v10's be deemed to be too competitive?

It'll be interesting to see how they define what is or isn't overly competitive.

[ASCII Man]

Originally Posted by manwell

Teams arent allowed to sell chassis to other teams, so how can it be a tweaked RB1? The best they could do is use a bit of the aero they have learnt from RB1 and apply it to the Toro Rosso car, but its still a Minardi underneath. But just bunging on areo parts from another car doesnt work though as the whole package including the main chassis/tub of the car has to work together. Slapping on a Mclaren designed front wing onto the Midland car wont make it go any faster either.

Teams are allowed to sell the intellectual property (ie the designs) of a car, so it's perfectly legal for STR to use the RB1 chassis as long as they build the cars themselves.

This is why Super Aguri had to use 4 year old Arrows chassis', because they couldn't manufacture their own car in time for the start of the season.

[Logrence]

The FIA introduced arbitrary rules based on research done for them by Cosworth. The restricted V10 must have an 80mm cap on the air intake and the engine must be limited to something 16,000rpm.

As I say, this was based on research by Cosworth, who came up with data based on their own engines and explained this to the FIA.

The FIA have said over winter testing that if it turns out the restricted engines are faster than the V8s, they reserve the right to change the regulations with 24 hours' notice and Cosworth are aware of this.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

Teams are allowed to sell the intellectual property (ie the designs) of a car, so it's perfectly legal for STR to use the RB1 chassis as long as they build the cars themselves.

This is why Super Aguri had to use 4 year old Arrows chassis', because they couldn't manufacture their own car in time for the start of the season.

Incorrect. Please read http://f1.racing-live.com/f1/en/head...16090835.shtml

[BertMk2]

Back to the engines - it was Minardi that brokered the deal to run V10's based on the fact that they couldn't afford to re-design the car to accept a V8. Minardi have since been bought out by Red Bull who are clearly not struggling for money - therefore, the argument for allowing them to run a V10 has vanished surely?

If STR beat anybody there will be protests on a number of grounds:

- They shouldn't be running a V10.
- It's an RB1 sprayed a slightly different colour.
- The rev limit is set too high.

Certainly going to be interesting.

[BootsOntheSide]

By the time the deal was done for Red Bull to buy the team, it was too late for them to get a contract with any other engine supplier. As mentioned previously, teams runnig differnet engine configurations wasn't a problem in the past.

[ECW Dan Selby]

lmao This is such a problem, and it's nowhere near the last we heard of it..

Selby