TCR Australia 2022

[Casper]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Just to begin with as I don't want to write an essay and then have you ask me more questions.

Why not, it is called a discussion

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

- Ford v Holden rivalry is an antiquated rivalry and is perpetuated by an outdated notion.

A point I have made many times, SC as it stands is an anachronism and an entity that should stay in the past. They need to move on and create a series that is relevant to today but we had had that discussion a few times with no answers.

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Despite some wild and exotic cars in their various histories, Touring car racing fundamentally for white bread cars. What gets lost down here is that Ford Falcons and Holden Commodores are white bread cars that were beefed up for racing.

As they always were from day one, nothing new there. What does "down here" mean?

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

What's not recognised, is that when touring car racing gets a spike of popularity, it's when it's comparable to what's on the public roads of the prospective country. Over here, we're still stuck in the 80s, early 90s, over a notion of professionalism and supposed superiority.

Do you want to have another go at that paragraph so it makes some sort of sense. "Over here" means what?

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Supercars is a closed shop for vested interests at all costs, where the ATCC should be egalitarian.

As is F1, the lesson was learned and copied well.

[Average Punter]

Wouldn't you love to see peckstar vrs 2 litre Touring Car Star in UFC???

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Average Punter

Wouldn't you love to see peckstar vrs 2 litre Touring Car Star in UFC???

Hmmm - pecky disappears from the forum, not heard from again - short time later 2ltcs appears, backs a different horse but takes a similar approach to other posters as pecky - spooky huh? Maybe pecky got hit by lightning or something and came back under a different guise. Or maybe not.

[Umai Naa]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Hmmm - pecky disappears from the forum, not heard from again - short time later 2ltcs appears, backs a different horse but takes a similar approach to other posters as pecky - spooky huh? Maybe pecky got hit by lightning or something and came back under a different guise. Or maybe not.

You're only saying what everyone is thinking.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

You're only saying what everyone is thinking.

Good that I’m maintaining my bad habit of stating the obvious!

[one five five]

TCR Corolla has broken cover in Argentina.

Surely ARG needs to do all it can to get one here?

[Backagain]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Hmmm - pecky disappears from the forum, not heard from again - short time later 2ltcs appears, backs a different horse but takes a similar approach to other posters as pecky - spooky huh? Maybe pecky got hit by lightning or something and came back under a different guise. Or maybe not.

Nah, Pecky made a lot more sense than 2little and could sometimes argue the post rather than the poster.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by one five five

TCR Corolla has broken cover in Argentina.



Surely ARG needs to do all it can to get one here?

You beat me. Given the sales of the GR Yaris and the GR Corolla coming, you would say There Has Never Been a Better time.

What is Rick Bates doing?

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[mtpanorama]

Originally Posted by Mixer

You beat me. Given the sales of the GR Yaris and the GR Corolla coming, you would say There Has Never Been a Better time.

What is Rick Bates doing?

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Throw young Zac Bates in there.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by mtpanorama

Throw young Zac Bates in there.

Rick is running the 86 program right?

He would have to be a shoo in for TCR then.

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[E.B]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Rick is running the 86 program right?

He would have to be a shoo in for TCR then.

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I think Zac has already been running in the 86 events as well.

https://the-riotact.com/at-just-16-c...t-debut/442560

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Casper

Why not, it is called a discussion

Not that you would've noticed. but crmalcolm has this habit of quoting me supposedly with the intent of furthering the discussion. But he never seems to get the point, or want to, which leads to asking more questions, and that's draining. So I didn't express my full opinion knowing he would ask more questions.

Originally Posted by Casper

A point I have made many times, SC as it stands is an anachronism and an entity that should stay in the past. They need to move on and create a series that is relevant to today but we had had that discussion a few times with no answers.

Supercars is an anachronism, this is an important point for those who want it to be the designated top tier class in Australia. ANachronisms are fine for non-professional national level motorsport, but not for the designated top tier.

The discussion may've occurred a few times, and there have been answers. It's 2-litre cars (or thereabouts). It;s just some don't want to acknowledge this for whatever reason. It's not even my opinion, it's just the way racing is.

Originally Posted by Casper

As they always were from day one, nothing new there. What does "down here" mean?

Over here means Australia.

I'm confused what you mean by "day one". When was day one?

Originally Posted by Casper

Do you want to have another go at that paragraph so it makes some sort of sense. "Over here" means what?

Yes, I'd like another go.

The popularity of touring cars, in whatever country/region the series is based, over and above those already interested in racing, comes down to how much the series correlated with what's driven on public roads. This so far mostly means 2-litre cars, but has never been exclusive to 2-litre cars.

Originally Posted by Casper

As is F1, the lesson was learned and copied well.

It doesn't work for the benefit of the whole of motor racing, similar to F1. The day that structure is smashed, the better it'll be for motor racing as a whole.

[Casper]

So when electric powered cars are the dominant style of road car you will welcome them with open arms and declare two litre cars dead as a race category? That day is going to be a hard swallow for a lot of people.

As a non believer why do you frequent a forum for a racing class you clearly hate and despise, what exactly do you think you add to this forum and what made you start to contribute. No one here is going to change because your POV is not the same as what drives this forum so I guess it is purely a sniping, criticism thing that trolls generally have.

[Umai Naa]

This forum is just a means to get off on arguing with people, and hopefully being right.

Some people haven't come to that realisation that.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Casper

So when electric powered cars are the dominant style of road car you will welcome them with open arms

I would acknowledge their merit as the designated top class.

Originally Posted by Casper

and declare two litre cars dead as a race category?

As an outright designated top tier class, that time will come.

I wouldn't declare it as 2-litre cars are the end of ICE engines and have a long use-by date.

Originally Posted by Casper

That day is going to be a hard swallow for a lot of people.

It might be if the atcc class goes from 5 litre to electric. But if that transition ever occurs, domestic motorsport here would be driven into the ground so deep that the cries won't have an impact.

Originally Posted by Casper

As a non believer why do you frequent a forum for a racing class you clearly hate and despise,

It's not about whether or not I like a particular class, it's about Australian motorsport as a whole. The attachment to the 5litre V8 ideology/myth is BS and has been to the detriment to Aus motorsport as a whole.

Originally Posted by Casper

what exactly do you think you add to this forum and what made you start to contribute.

Well, as far as what satisfaction others get, I don't know.

There's no question I point to a blindspot in Aus motorsport discussion. It's not just here, but elsewhere on the web and Aus motorsport as a whole. It's been a weakness of Aus motorsport for at least 2 decades now. ?


?

Originally Posted by Casper

No one here is going to change because your POV is not the same as what drives this forum so I guess it is purely a sniping, criticism thing that trolls generally have.

People might not change their views because of me, but it's to their weakness that they don't have a broader view of racing.

5 litre V8s are outdated and don't belong as a top touring car class. They're for specialty racing (GT or non-professional national class), which is what Supercars kind of are, and will be in 2023.

[Just Do It!]

For memory, when I watched American Beauty, wasn't the guy who was most anti-gay actually the elephant in the closet? Funny that.....

[Casper]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

I wouldn't declare it as 2-litre cars are the end of ICE engines and have a long use-by date.

Not in Europe, their life span is very limited and we drive what others make so not here either. Toyota have in recent days declared the ICE engine dead.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

You are forecasting that, and you have done a lot.

The hybrid/electric revolution is still some time away. A series doesn't have to be on the money to the year as far as what cars manufacturers are selling (Because that's still ahead of time) and what consumers are buying, but lag that's within a range.

2 litre cars could still be designated as a top tier touring car class, even in Europe when supposedly hybrid and/or electric cars become the norm or be included in a multi car class.

This is not the case with 5litre V8s, which exists nowadays primarily because of vested interests, it's a known quantity, and domestic motor racing down here is a smaller culture. They are otherwise out of place.

[chavez]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

This is not the case with 5litre V8s, which exists nowadays primarily because of vested interests, it's a known quantity, and domestic motor racing down here is a smaller culture. They are otherwise out of place.

Which of the series listed below are larger domestic sports in terms of event attendance (as % of population) and media coverage in their respective countries?

BTCC or Supercars

DTM or Supercars

SuperGT or Supercars

Turismo Carretera or Supercars

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

The popularity of touring cars, in whatever country/region the series is based, over and above those already interested in racing, comes down to how much the series correlated with what's driven on public roads. This so far mostly means 2-litre cars, but has never been exclusive to 2-litre cars.

The engine is probably the least relevant part of the car when it comes to comparisons between the racing version of a model (in terms of touring car) and the road version.

When the majority of the public watch BTCC - they know that the 1.2L engine on the road model (the only size petrol engine available) is different to the one in Plato's Astra. It is true that a V8 would seem too far removed for a UK-based series, but the model driven is more of interest to the general viewer compared to the engine.
For 2022, the move to hybrid (for BTCC) is also a use of technology that is far removed from the road-going hybrid car sales. Again, the public don't care how similar it is - just that hybrid is the direction road-going car sales are moving in, and they see the same move in BTCC as important. This is evidenced in comments from many team members on the grid who say that sponsors are looking to associate with a hybrid technology racing series.

In terms of the engine in a TCR Australia car - the choice of 1.75-2 litre has nothing to do with what is being used on Australian roads. The adoption of TCR comes with the standard engine size adopted for TCR in 2014.

In terms of what is relevant for the Australian racing scene - it depends on whether the viewers and sponsors are after road-relevance. If TCR is to remain, and Aus will follow the European-led TCR lead, then when TCR changes engine format, TCR Australia will follow.

[chavez]

A series that was a reflection of what was happening on Australian roads swapped out the turbo-diesels for V8's......

[E.B]

Originally Posted by chavez

A series that was a reflection of what was happening on Australian roads swapped out the turbo-diesels for V8's......

So true though.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by chavez

Which of the series listed below are larger domestic sports in terms of event attendance (as % of population) and media coverage in their respective countries?

BTCC or Supercars

DTM or Supercars

SuperGT or Supercars

Turismo Carretera or Supercars

Your question is so nuanced it doesn't matter what the answer is. You don't even seem to consider other factors involved.

Originally Posted by chavez

A series that was a reflection of what was happening on Australian roads swapped out the turbo-diesels for V8's......

And it's still not a popular class.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

The engine is probably the least relevant part of the car when it comes to comparisons between the racing version of a model (in terms of touring car) and the road version.

When the majority of the public watch BTCC - they know that the 1.2L engine on the road model (the only size petrol engine available) is different to the one in Plato's Astra.

The engine will always be relevant. It's the most important part. On another note, I think it's why F1 has lost its way in the last 30 years.

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

It is true that a V8 would seem too far removed for a UK-based series, but the model driven is more of interest to the general viewer compared to the engine.

Yeah, and they're all small cars.

I stick with 2ltr cars because its the simplest class, and ticks more boxes for an appropriate Touring car class. But whether it's 2ltr na, 1.6ltr na, 1.4 or 1.2T or whatever, it's all in the same group.

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

For 2022, the move to hybrid (for BTCC) is also a use of technology that is far removed from the road-going hybrid car sales. Again, the public don't care how similar it is -

I'm not sure this can be said definitely?

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

just that hybrid is the direction road-going car sales are moving in, and they see the same move in BTCC as important. This is evidenced in comments from many team members on the grid who say that sponsors are looking to associate with a hybrid technology racing series.

That's fine, but it's not a big deal to be ahead of time in a motor racing context. It's ok to have a slight lag and allow more substantial knowledge guide the way.

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

In terms of the engine in a TCR Australia car - the choice of 1.75-2 litre has nothing to do with what is being used on Australian roads. The adoption of TCR comes with the standard engine size adopted for TCR in 2014.

In terms of what is relevant for the Australian racing scene - it depends on whether the viewers and sponsors are after road-relevance. If TCR is to remain, and Aus will follow the European-led TCR lead, then when TCR changes engine format, TCR Australia will follow.

In Australia, it's different because we've been devoid of such a class for so long that anything will do despite whatever weaknesses.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

The engine will always be relevant. It's the most important part. On another note, I think it's why F1 has lost its way in the last 30 years.

If the engine is so relevant, how do you account for the fact that most BTCC cars have an engine that is not found in the road car, and is usually a different size to what is seen on the road?
Particularly when you have also claimed:

'The popularity of touring cars, in whatever country/region the series is based, over and above those already interested in racing, comes down to how much the series correlated with what's driven on public roads.'